As the year 2012 comes to an end, some thoughts about the state of education in our state come to mind. To wit, it seems like almost everyone in Arizona wants to improve our educational system and an almost equal number don’t want to pay for any of these improvements. There seems to be overwhelming verbal support for public education in Arizona until people are asked to monetarily support their convictions.
The elephant in the room that few want to see or address is that Arizona will continue to flounder in national educational competition until we provide additional resources to our schools. What person wants to go into education as a career today or remain in education as a career when their wages are disproportionate to their schooling, when they are continually blamed for the ills of the educational system even though they are not provided with the needed resources to succeed, and where their job security is jeopardized on an almost annual basis? Don’t believe this? Ask any relative, friend or neighbor that is an educator in Arizona and they will probably tell you that if they could, they might rescind their career choice. Money doesn’t sing or dance, but it does talk.
Here’s the bottom line: We’ll continue to be in the lower quartile of educational achievement unless we pay our teachers comparable to what accountants, business majors, computer technicians, district manager, engineers, etc., are paid. We want all of our educators to be exceptional, but we want to “reward” them with paltry wages. We do unfortunately get what we pay for and we’re currently funding a below-average educational system in Arizona.
I want to be around when we can proudly say to any business wanting to locate in our great state, “Come to Arizona not only for our sunshine, but also for our superior and stupendously supported schools.” The year 2013 would be a great time to start seeing serious support for our schools from our state solons.
Richard Meszar
Mesa
DonMey posted at 1:06 pm on Fri, Jan 4, 2013.
The median pay for a high school teacher in Arizona is 54.5k. If you extrapolate that to an entire year of work that the rest of us do, that would be nearly 70k: 69k and change.
Do you think a median salary of 70k is too low for high school teachers?
DonMey posted at 12:19 pm on Fri, Jan 4, 2013.
Teachers work 180 days or so a year. Assuming 10 holidays and 3 weeks of vacation, everyone else works 235 or so days a year. That is 55 days less, or 11 weeks of pay. If I worked 11 out of 52 weeks a year less, my salary would be significantly reduced. (over 20%) Teachers are paid fairly, considering the amount of time off they get.
As far as the Arizona budget, over 25% of spending is on education. What do you think a fair percentage is? Keep in mind, the state also has to pay for police/fire/roads/transportation/city workers/pensions/etc
Arizona Willie posted at 8:05 am on Fri, Jan 4, 2013.
Patriotic Person. I did re-read it several times both before and after posting.
I will agree that the sentence structure and punctuation < may > leave something to be desired. :)
However, otherwise, I see nothing wrong with it.
Can you refute what i said?
PatrioticPerson posted at 11:30 pm on Thu, Jan 3, 2013.
AZ Willie,
Please re-read your above statement. Then think about it for a while.
Arizona Willie posted at 7:55 am on Thu, Jan 3, 2013.
Patriotic Person: the amount of time a person has practiced their profession and the amount of time they work per year are two VERY different dogs.
VofReason was complaining that teachers only work 8 months a year and his premise is that they therefore don't deserve a higher salary because they are, essentially, part time workers and can get another job during their months off.
This is nothing but pure jealousy.
In fact, most teachers spend their off months taking courses themselves ( and spending their own money on them ) in order to keep current and they also work on lesson plans.
As I pointed out, many people don't work 12 months a year but get paid astronomical sums and no one complains about them. Only people who want teachers to work for next to nothing so they can pay less in taxes.
A plumber might make 80 K a year making feces run downhill, but a teacher is expected to face 200 hormonal teenagers every day and explain the intricacies of trigonometry and make it interesting enough they remember some of it for 35K a year.
PatrioticPerson posted at 6:50 am on Thu, Jan 3, 2013.
AZ Willie,
The amount of time worked in a profession helps determine your expertise in that field. I would feel a lot more comfortable with a surgeon who has been performing operations for a few years than someone just out of medical school. The longer you work in a profession usually the better you are. It generally works that way with all professions.
I think you should be a political analyst..
Arizona Willie posted at 4:29 pm on Wed, Jan 2, 2013.
Sorry, I have no idea how or why I typed the " one " in the fourth paragraph and this lousy software won't let us fix stuff like that.
Arizona Willie posted at 4:27 pm on Wed, Jan 2, 2013.
VofReason: why should the amount of time worked be a determining factor?
People, theoretically, get paid for the value to society of what they do.
An artist may create a painting in only an hour or two but he may get thousands of dollars for it.
A surgeon one operates on the patient for a couple of hours ( usually, sometimes much longer ) but he gets paid thousands of dollars for that too. Some operations he might get paid as much as a teacher gets for a whole year.
Pro athletes only work 4 or 5 months a year and often are paid millions.
An entertainer puts on a show that lasts for 90 minutes and, once again, gets paid thousands if not tens of thousands or more.
VofReason posted at 2:02 pm on Wed, Jan 2, 2013.
I have tried before, but I will try again. What should it cost to educate per child in Arizona and why? I will also make the case that 9K per kid seems like it should cover the job. Perhaps the people responsible for spending money for education are not doing a good job at it. One commentator notes that more money buys better houses, cars etc etc. Yes, but if you knew that cars cost 20K, you would pay 25K for the same car would you? I agree, Teachers should be paid what they are worth. Before we equate them to accountants and others, let's make sure we are talking about the same number of months worked- 8 vs 12. Honest teachers will tell you they love their summers. Finally, in the one room school houses, teachers taught with a blackboard and a book a kid. Hmmmm?
Arizona Willie posted at 10:21 pm on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
Patriotic Person: I said this " A law requiring ALL public officials to put their children in the public school system. "
I did not specify political party.
ALL public officials should have to send their kids to regular public schools.
Then their attitude about " throwing money at the problem " and constantly wanting to cut funding for public schools would change a wee bit.
As it is, they don't have any skin in the game because most ( but not all, I'm sure ) politicians send their kids to private schools, so their kids aren't affected by public school funding cuts.
All they see is a way to avoid paying taxes and so they call it " throwing money at the problem " when they know perfectly well they have cut education year after year.
Certain members of the Legislature want to put all the money in Charter schools.
One might wonder why that would be ... not it doesn't take much wondering to figure that out.
JMJ posted at 7:15 pm on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
Leon, It's 2013, but some things never change.
Happy New Year you FROOT LOOP!
PatrioticPerson posted at 4:19 pm on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
I know quite a few Republicans that send their kids to public schools. So I guess not all Republicans send their kids to Charter or Private schools. I even know some Democrats that send their kids to Charter and Private schools.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 3:20 pm on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
WHEN ARIZONA WAS GIVING MONEY TO THE SCHOOLS = NOTHING IMPROVED.
TEACHERS, SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS, SOCIALISTS, GLOBALISTS, MARXISTS, COMMIE WANNA-BE's AND OTHER DEMOCRATS MUST THINK THAT MONEY FOR SCHOOLS IS THIS HUGE .......NEVER-ENDING ROLL OF TOILET PAPER THAT NEVER STOPS BEING FLUSHED DOWN THE ......."POOR TEACHING TOILET"......[sad]
Arizona Willie posted at 8:54 am on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
Republicans always claim we are " throwing money at the problem ", even though the Republican Legislature has cut funding for public education year after year.
And, year after year, Arizona's education results have gone down down down down.
A logical person would draw a conclusion from the results of cutting education funding.
But not Republicans. They just want to cut more in order to pay less and less taxes.
Their kids don't go to public schools.
Perhaps that is what we need.
A law requiring ALL public officials to put their children in the public school system.
Not a Charter school.
A regular everyday public school.
Perhaps then Republican legislators might see some wisdom in increasing funding for public education.
One thing is for sure ... removing money for public education has not helped the situation -- it has made it worse. Proven by the declining test scores of Arizona public schools students.
Do you think that since cutting the education budget has not helped ... perhaps increasing it just might?
No that requires logical thought which is verboten in the Republican Legislature.
downtownresident posted at 8:14 am on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
All you have to do is elect people to the legislature that are more concerned with the future of something other than the next election cycle and where the money will come from to buy enough votes to win it.
Then quit stealing money from public education to get rich running charter schools.
Let's face it. There's no immediate pay-off with a better quality education. So, we'll be stuck with cash cow charter schools and declining public education system until we get some real grown-ups in the legislature.
Cerulean posted at 8:07 am on Tue, Jan 1, 2013.
Bravo JMJ! “ Teachers are no more Atlas than Sisyphus.”
I love that. Your words are lucid, witty and wise. [thumbup][thumbup]
PatrioticPerson posted at 5:07 pm on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.
JMJ,
If you are refering to Prop 204 it was a great idea....BUT.... in all the legal mumble jumble of the Proposition there was no reform, no accountability, no expected results and no commitment. It was pretty much "Just give us the money and things will improve". People are getting tired of giving "government" a blank check and hoping they do the right thing. They don't have a good track record.
PatrioticPerson posted at 11:37 am on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.
Democratic Dad,
For "most" of the things you mentioned you can see what you are getting in advance. With education you know what you want but no assurance that the extra money will provide the results you want.
Bluepoet posted at 7:15 am on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.
When it comes to education, I want it all: I want to see our next generation get the best education, not the 47th best. I want to help finance that, even if it means more taxes paid. I want to see reforms that make sense, and quantify that, in a way that enlightens the system, not in a way that reduces learning to memorization, and test manipulation.
When it comes to education, I want it all. Nothing less...
And, I don't even have children...
There's a difference between fiscal conservatism, and penury (look it up). That is nothing to be proud of, and will end up costing so much more, on the other side of the ledger!!!
Abstract01 posted at 11:56 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
For more money you can get get quality, but only if you seek the best. If you don't investigate claims, kick the tires, etc, you only give the salesman a higher commission.
I don't care for bureaucrats being Liberal with my tax dollars. I pay my share (and no more!) and expect quality services in return.
If I understand correctly, most Arizona governments are not in debt "up to their eyebrows" as are California and other states.
Our state may be out of step with the "feel-good, take care of everybody" attitude that pervades the nation, but I am proud to belong to a fiscally conservative state.
JMJ posted at 9:29 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
Stupid filters.
JMJ posted at 9:29 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
The altruism of the profession is no longer worth the sacrifice. The Sisyphian task of rolling the boulder up the hill to be flattened by it, yet again, should be warning enough to find a profession that can earn you a living, and not continually run you over as methods and pedagogy are constantly recreated to help set you up for failure when you can't get blood out of a turnip. The burden of accountability cannot be upheld only by teachers. Oops. That would be Atlas's job. Teachers are no more Atlas than Sisyphus.
It wasn't always like this, but I doubt it'll ever be even close, again, to the joy it was to teach, as teachers have been devalued, demoralized and bear the treadmarks of all the knobby tires that keep running them over after the boulder flattens them, first.
'Rots 'o' ruck' Arizona. It was a great place to teach, once. We are now seen nationally as: "Nimrods 'r' Us".
JMJ posted at 9:29 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
I would never recommend that anyone go into education if one actually thinks one would be able to support one's family on the wages that are paid to teachers in this state, if one thinks that it is a "system" run in any semblance of a fair manner regarding promotion of the fittest for administrative positions, if one thinks one can make a difference. On all three, no, no and no. Try making a difference when you can't even afford to feed your own family, when the sacrifices far outweigh the "good", and when none, administration, parents nor society, values you.
JMJ posted at 9:28 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
Yes, what if "throwing more money" at education in the state of Arizona is not the answer?
Well, it's d a m n obvious that we will never know if that works in the state of Arizona, isn't it?
DemocraticDad posted at 9:04 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
For more money you get a better house, car, seats at the theatre, a concert or a sporting event, shoes, pair of pants, dress, hotel room, vacation, employee, diamond, wine, TV, sofa, refrigerator, stove, dishwasher, carpeting, swimming pool, cell phone, computer, dinner at a better restaurant, watch, etc., etc., etc. But for some reason, when it comes to education the conservative mantra is money does not equate to better education. Hmmmmmmmmmm?
chatmandu002 posted at 8:14 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
More money does not equate to better education.
PatrioticPerson posted at 6:57 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
Mr Meszar,
What if throwing money at it doesn't work. How about reforms, commitments, results and rewards. If I am going to be asked to spend more I want to have a comfortable feeling that I will get something for my money. Spending more money and still being "around 47" (as truth says) would not be what I would expect and I am pretty sure I would want my money back.
truth posted at 2:50 pm on Sun, Dec 30, 2012.
Richard, When you are talking about Arizona, there is one place Arizona holds the record, Arizona is rated around 47 in just about everything not just education.