Scott Sternlieb’s remarks on Nov. 7 were uninformed and unfair. He inferred that instances of slave murder, torture and rape were common. They were not. Slavery, then as now, was an uncivilized and inhuman institution, but the slaveholders were not the Simon Legrees depicted in Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Assuming them to be so is an affront to any intelligent discussion of the subject.
But that argument is beside the point. The fine young men of the Confederate Army were not slaveholders. Do you believe that men in their teens and early twenties possessed the wealth to own slaves? No, they were patriots, fighting for the right to end a voluntary association with the other states. If Mr. Sternlieb considers them to be traitors, he must apply that appellation to George Washington and Nathan Hale, who also fought heroically to end an association they rejected. I consider all the above to be patriots, worthy of our praise.
The so-called "Civil War" was not that, at all. It was originally entitled "The War Between the States," which is more factual. In the South, a few still refer to that tragic conflict as "The War of Yankee Aggression," which is also more accurate than "Civil War."
I do not believe that Mr. Sternlieb adds anything constructive to the difficulties of today’s society by slandering heroes of the past and by degrading thoughtful men who seek to bring dignity to their memory.
Don Carsten
Gilbert
Cerulean posted at 4:03 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
William H.Seward (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Seward ) toured the south in 1835 with his wife Frances. As taken from a Team of Rivals by Doris Goodwin, here is a fragment of the experience: “One day Frances stopped the carriage to converse with an old blind slave woman, who was at work “turning the ponderous wheel of a machine” in a yard. When Frances asked about her family, she revealed that her husband and all her children had been sold long ago to different owners and she had never heard from any of them again. This sad encounter left a lasting impression on Frances. She recorded the interview in detail . . .
A few days afterward, the Sewards came across a group of slave children chained together on the road outside of Richmond. Henry described the sorrowful scene:” Ten naked little boys, between six and twelve years old, tied together, two and two, by their wrists, were all fastened to a long rope and followed by a tall gaunt white man, who, with his long lash, whipped up the sad and weary procession, drove it to the horse-trough to drink, and thence to a shed, where they lay down on the ground and sobbed and moaned themselves to sleep.” The children had been purchased from different plantations that day and were on their way to be auctioned off at Richmond. (page 78)
Leon Ceniceros posted at 6:24 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
Cerulean describes such a cruel, heartles episode in American History, doesn't he?
Let's move forward a century to the corner of Florence Avenue and Normandie Street in South Central Los Angeles. A jury verdict has just been announced and Local Black men (maybe even some descended from the slave children that Cerulean referred to) are upset with the outcome of the verdict. They loot the Liquor Store on the above mentioned corner and decide that they will beat and terrorize any White drivers that are unfortunate enough to drive through that intersection.
TRUCK DRIVER....REGINALD DENNY...IS ONE OF THESE UNFORTUNATE WHITE DRIVERS. HE IS PULLED FROM HIS TRUCK, BEATEN, KICKED IN THE BODY, A PIECE OF CONCRETE FROM THE SMASHED BUS BENCH IS SMASHED INTO HIS FACE KNOCKING OUT MOST OF HIS TEETH AND BREAKING HIS JAW IN MANY PLACES, HE IS KICKED REPEATEDLY IN THE GROIN.....................IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME....GO TO...YOUTUBE...AND IN THE "SEARCH" BOX....TYPE IN........."REGINALD DENNY".
YOU CAN ALSO READ ( GO TO YAHOO "SEARCH" AND TYPE IN REGINALD DENNY AND READ THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE)...ABOUT THE HORRIFIC INJURIES THAT REGINALD DENNY SUFFERED THAT DAY AND THE WEEKS, MONTHS AND YEARS OF REHABILITATION TO LEARN TO WALK AND TALK AGAIN.
WHITES AREN'T THE ONLY ON RACE TO SHOW CRUELTY AND INHUMAN TREATMENT TO ANOTHER RACE.....THEY DON'T HAVE A ...MONOPOLY...ON HATE.
DataMan posted at 9:00 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
If you take up arms against the US, you are a traitor, unless you win. The Rebs lost. They are not heroes.
PERIOD.
BTW, I'm actually related to Robert E Lee.
Dale Whiting posted at 9:15 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
DataMan,
If you are a citizen of South Carolina, if the state votes to leave the union and join the Confederate States, if the union army refuzes to leave Fort Sumpter and you take up arms to force them to leave, are you a traitor to the union from which your homeland as left? NO, you are not.
It was a war between the states that left the union and those states which did not. Lincoln realized that where states left the union, the United States would become more like Europe, weaker on the international and national sceen. The house divided against its self could fall more easily. Slavery was the issue dividing the states. The Civil War was the result of a failure to resolve those differences. War is diplomacy by other means. War employs citizens of both sides.
There are no grounds to fault Confederate soldiers for taking up arms in defense of the Confederacy, their homeland!
DataMan posted at 9:38 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
Dale Whiting. If you fight against the US, you are a traitor to the US. Real Americans should pee on your grave on Veterans's day.
If you don't don't get that, have your family let me know where your grave is!
If AZ voted today to leave the union and you went along with it, pee would be too good for you!
(I bet you are so nuts that you liked Pearce and Arpaio!)
Leon Ceniceros posted at 11:08 pm on Sun, Nov 11, 2012.
Well, DataMan,
I remember some "data" from back in February of 2011. It seems that there was a "Sessionist" Movement in "some" of Arizona's Southern Counties to seceed from the Great State of Arizona over SB1070.
You can find out all about our "home-grown sessionists" (now I for one would never, ever accuse them of being ..."TRAITORS"...to the Great State of Arizona by trying to create a ...."BAJA CALIFORNIA". I presume that they would align themselves with the States of Durango and Sonora, Mexico and possibly, California some how.
Pima County Sheriff Clarence "NO SB1070" Dupnic and the US Congressman from Tucson, Raul "Boycott Arizona" Grijalva and other Democrat Activists were going at the Session hot-and-heavy for a while........until the Newspaper articles and columns and the TV Reporters stories all dried up for lack of interest.
These Americans had a strong ideological disparity with the over-whelming, "Pro-SB 1070" sentiment of the rest of Arizona. Just like the Southern States had their ideological disparity with the Northern States. Just like family arguments....sides are drawn and the fighting began. All water under the bridge. General Grant treated General Lee in a gentlemanly fashion and the wounds healed over the years. Southern Soldiers fought for their beliefs and Northern Soldiers fought for their's.
At least the Southern youth enlisted in their State's Militias which is more that I can say about a certain group. No "DEFERRMENT'S"....back then.........[wink]
Bingo6 posted at 7:25 am on Mon, Nov 12, 2012.
Once again the Tribune 's token racist. Is still allowed to spew filth.
Cerulean posted at 8:25 am on Mon, Nov 12, 2012.
There ARE grounds to fault Confederate soldiers, but that is not what Don Carsten’s letter is about. Carsten is attempting to elevate the confederate soldier to “hero” status. He is saying that young confederates fought to divide the nation out of ignorance; therefore, we should canonize their place in history as illiterate soldiers.
The young confederates were not bereft of intelligence (although Leon might lead you to think otherwise), they knew what they were fighting for and it was NOT their land. They were fighting for the ability to own, use and, by constitutional law, count a slave as only three fifths of a whole person (regardless of color).
Our pledge to the flag goes like this “One nation, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for all”. Lincoln said he was “dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal”.
Lincoln also said, “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.”
Dale Whiting posted at 5:32 am on Wed, Nov 14, 2012.
Dataman,
The civil war was waged over the idea of leaving the union. Slavery was the back drop to why states wanted to leave. Northerners were encouraging slaves to leave and come north. However the option to leave the union never existed. Lincoln made that point very clear. So did Andy Jackson and he owned upwards of 150 slaves. Tennessee's second US president, Andy Johnson, became president because he choose Washington DC over returning to his home state. Lincoln picked him to help with reconstruction. Even Texas has only one option, split itself into five separate states, a condition it was granted when it as a soverign and indenpendent nation first joined.
You and I have a deep seated disagreement. Take your head out from where is rests in darkness and smell the roses in the sun light.
And by the way, just how many VETS did you take to a memorial ceremony this past Monday? I took five, all in wheel chairs, six if I include myself! See you on my next visit to the Carl Haden Veterans Administration Hospital. Will I find you there in the mental ward?
Dale Whiting posted at 5:52 am on Wed, Nov 14, 2012.
Dataman, here is some data.
Traitor: One who violates his allegiance and betrays his/her country; one guilty of treason; one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country.
Where the several confederate states had left the union and confederated into another union, the war between the states was waged by soldiers, none of whom were traitors to their respective countries. It's a technical point, but a valid point. Robert E. Lee was no traitor. He formally resigned his commission with the US Army and there after was commissioned into the Confederate Army.
After the war, and in a very slow process, confederate soldiers and politicians were allowed to regain citizenship as a part of reconstruction. The process included swearing allegiance to the United States. None were prosecuted as traitors, none! So you have gotten your head up into a place were the sun does not shine!
Now look up "insurgent." In Afghanistan the US is todays insurgent force! Like in Vietnam, we set up our puppet government in order to make us not appear to be the insurgents. The Taliban was the duely constituted government of a country with widely divided loyalties. The Northern collition was one. The Taliban was another. Just before 9/11 Bin Laden helped the Taliban murder the Northern collition's leader. Bin Laden was an insurgent, too, a foreigner messing with the domestic politics of another nation, one recognized by outsider countries, but not well recognized by its own citizens.