When did America start punishing financial success or inherited wealth? We don’t punish educational or sporting successes or achievements. We don’t punish people who are born good-looking or well-built do we? If a student studies hard and earns a good grade do we reduce that test grade to a lower grade and bring up a failing student?
Do we take touch-downs or home runs away from a successful team and give them to a hardly-working team?
Do we punish a successful Olympian and give some of his/her score to an unsuccessful Olympian? To all of the above the answer is "NO".
Then why do we punish financial success or the accident of a wealthy birth by making these people pay a higher tax rate than everybody else? Everybody pays the same Luxury Tax. Everybody pays the same Toll tax. Everybody pays the same sales tax. Everybody pays the same house tax rate. If you live in a rich neighborhood or a poor neighborhood don’t we all put the same 45cent stamp on our greeting cards and letters?
Why is the amount of money a person earns judged any differently for taxation purposes. "...one Nation under God, indivisibly, with liberty and justice for all". If all of our other Laws are enforced "equally", then why is the "Income Tax" Law any different? A rich person’s vote is counted the same as a poor person’s vote. Let’s go back to Democracy and leave Socialism, Communism and Marxism to the 3rd World, Russia and China.
Leon Ceniceros
Mesa
truth posted at 4:44 pm on Sun, Dec 2, 2012.
Leon, you left out one argument. that is how you make your wealth, if you are a company using slave labor in China, Foxconn where working conditions are so horrible that they have to put nets around the building because employees are jumping off the roof commiting suicide, manufacturing U.S. electronics. Tazreen Fashion LTD. in Dhaka, Bangladesh where 112 people were killed in a fire where officials are suspected of locking in the employees where major U.S. companies get their garments manufactured. Hostess was smashed by vulture capatilist where CEO's took 300% pay raises asking bankruptcy judges to pay executives $1.75 million in bonuses. Professional sports where billions of tax dollars are spent on building stadiums where there is no return to the tax payer. Apple Computer who pays 1.9% federal taxes, GE who pay 7.9% federal taxes. To many U.S. corporations have moved the production of their merchandise to countries where slave labor is accepted.
rockinroller posted at 6:11 pm on Sun, Dec 2, 2012.
Hey Leon: The wealthy and privileged in this country aren't being "punished"--the rules and laws are being put in place so that they pay their fair share, that's all. It's funny how people like you harbor this "keepa' your hands off my stuff" attitude, when in fact the accumulation of whatever you are deeming as making one "wealthy" was likely accumulated off the backs of the less-fortunate. A dichotomy of class in this country--and an ever widening one that essentially is reducing the middle class to nothingness--is fertile ground for rebellion and social unrest.
Want to safeguard your stuff? You best move.
HRPuckinfutz posted at 1:53 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
The fact is, the wealthy are not paying the same as their hired help. Why are the rich paying effective tax rates around 14% when the hired help is paying an effective tax rate of about 18%? Is that fair? Why are people who own mansions, luxury cars, two, three, four, five and more homes, show horses, etc. paying a lower tax rate than the people who they hire to take care of all those items and need their pay to feed themselves and their families? The highest tier tax rate for the uber rich was at one time 91%. Yes, 91%. Nobody is asking to return to those days, but the fact that the uber rich are paying a lower effective tax rate than the hired help is not acceptable, either.
Reality Fudging posted at 3:04 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Leon hit the 'reality check'. What is your concept of justice? The current administration offers anyone making $250K or above the honor of paying 39.6% of every dollar earned in tax. Think about that for a moment. Imagine yourself right near the line, maybe you're a doctor who spent 12-years in school, or a small business person who put in 12+ hours a day? Now you have some income for all those years of toiling. But wait...the gov't now wants almost 40-cents of every dollar you earn?
Dale Whiting posted at 4:04 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Leon,
There are three types of taxes, Flat, Progressive and Regressive. None are punishments.
Reality,
The tax is 39% on those dollars earned over and above the first $250K, not on every dollar earned! Have you ever prepared a tax return? Thought not.
Bluepoet posted at 9:58 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Punishment? Hardly...
Parity? One can only hope
Reality? The true reality is that the more money one has, the less one has to give away. Our tax laws are based on the same thing as our school tests--a bell curve that serves no one, except those who aren't even on the chart--the extremely wealthy, and those in abject poverty..
.I don't think it's wrong to expect parity, even though we live in an economic system that is neither capitalism, or marxism, in a country that is neither a democracy or a monarchy. We live in a capitalist shell-game economy, and a country that is an Oligarchy. This is why the middle class was formed, and why it is being systematically milked dry...the oligarchs are not content with only controlling the industrialized world...they want it all, and the middle class is just a stepping stone in that direction. Don't think so? Look at the rise of the middle class, in China...
chuckles3 posted at 11:04 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Socialists out in full force today.
Let the producers produce, then give the fruits of their labor to not just the truly needy(charities used to do this) but a dependent class that will create generations of economic slaves beholden to your party.
All the while you live the life of the Elite 1%. And your useful idiots post on forums like this.
Dale Whiting posted at 11:23 am on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Reality,
It appears that you have never prepared a tax return before. The 40% is calculated on dollars earned above $250k. It's called a marginal tax rate! H & R Block may be hiring this season. Where so, classes will begin in early January. You need all of the course work you can get!
DonMey posted at 1:12 pm on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
The "American Way" is getting something for nothing. In this case, that means funding something important to you, but with other people's money.
California had two ballots for education funding this last election. One funded education by increasing taxes on the rich and giving the money to the government to disperse. The other increased everyone's taxes, specifically stated the money had to go to schools, and politicians couldn't defund schools to simply transfer the money to another program with a backroom deal. Guess which won in a landslide, and which lost in a landslide?
VofReason posted at 1:18 pm on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
How about a flat tax that takes the game out of taxes. You make a dollar, you pay X% in tax. That way, the uber rich cannot pay off politicians to tilt the tax scheme in their favor or use accountants to play the edges of a tax code. I missed in the arguments posted here the fact that the government is inefficient and wastes huge amounts of tax money that it collects. Or is the point that at some level they can collect enough where that doesn't matter?
VofReason posted at 1:19 pm on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Boy that Truth, always brings level headed logic to every argument.
DonMey posted at 1:29 pm on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Rock - The rich pay a higher share of taxes than they have in wealth. To me, "fair share" means if you have 20% of the food, you pay 20% of the bill.
Abstract01 posted at 7:44 pm on Mon, Dec 3, 2012.
Truth, You omitted one of the largest earnings-industry; the motion picture/entertainment industry.
An interesting note on there is that many motion pictures are being made outside of California, because the taxes are extreme.
Rockinroller, "fair share" is such a vague term-it means nothing except what I think is right. If you substitute "EQUAL SHARE", I would be in agreement.
BluePoet That bell curve description has a ring of reality!
Leon, I complement you for a well-written, reasoned springboard for discussion. It's great to see you in non-caps!!!
Arizona Willie posted at 10:45 am on Tue, Dec 4, 2012.
Equal isn't always equal.
If a low income person pays 30% tax on $25,000 they have only $17,500 left to raise their family with.
A wealthy person who pays 30% tax on $1,000,000 has $700,000 left to enjoy a wonderful lifestyle and they owe the country more because they receive more from society.
Sure they work hard for their money, but so does the guy who only gets $25K.
NONE of us would be in the position we are in if we did not live in this country.
Neither you nor I nor Grover Norquist would have been able to accomplish what we have if were not for this society.
It has long been considered FAIR if those who receive more FROM society pay more TO society.
That is NOT punishment.
Income Tax Left to live on
$25,000.00 0.3 $17,500.00
$30,000.00 0.3 $21,000.00
$50,000.00 0.3 $35,000.00
$1,000,000.00 0.3 $700,000.00
Masterrogue666 posted at 1:05 pm on Tue, Dec 4, 2012.
To all you persons that claim "Big Business" is evil, and should pay. Are ALL businesses that way? I thought America was about EQUALITY for all!
DonMey posted at 1:20 pm on Tue, Dec 4, 2012.
Willie - America is hardly the only country with successful people, nor are we the only country with "rags to riches" stories.
And as I pointed out, even if you assume all wealth is received from society (rather than earned through an exchange of services and/or goods) the rich still pay more of the tax burden than their share of the wealth. While "owning" around 50% of the wealth, they paid over 60% of the tax burden.
Bingo6 posted at 3:48 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
So according to the Tribunes favorite extremist we should all fall to our knees and revere the greedy robber barons as they happily oppress labor worldwide and let them avoid their modest 3 % tax increase while rest of us, and I really doubt anyone on this sight is part of the 1%, should watch our own taxes increase by $2000.00. per year.
Rich posted at 7:03 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
The problem isn't wealthy people not paying enough, it's that nearly half (47% is an oft quoted figure) pay nothing and/or take rather than pay in. If they couldn't take, zero out with this that and the other deduction, entitlement, grant, and pay a minimum of just around $100 you could fashion a recovery. The wealthy don't have enough money to accomplish that. Obama's 'tax the rich scam' is just that a scam, it doesn't raise nearly enough and restricts investment capital. Unless the '47%' give instead of take, it may get better, but it's not going to be cured.
wdgnas posted at 8:10 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
rich: you forgot to mention the corporations that pay little or no federal income tax.
DonMey posted at 10:00 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Bingo - I love how you refer to "their" taxes as a "modest 3%", and then quickly switch your measuring stick to a full dollar amount of 2k when talking about your own taxes, trying to give the impression that they wouldn't even notice their tax increase, while you'll be buried by it.
WD - GE (run by Obama advisor Immelt) didn't pay federal income taxes, but most corporations pay at least some of the "highest corporate tax rate" in the world.
Arizona Willie posted at 10:38 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Actually the best plan would be to eliminate The Personal Income Tax COMPLETELY.
There should be a sales / value-added tax ( VAT ) collected on all transactions, including stocks, bonds, and any financial instruments. With the only exemptions being for medicine and medical services.
Rich posted at 11:01 am on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
wdgnas
Corporations have no money other than what they take from people, at best taxes are passed through them, they never pay any anyway, taxing them is just taxing the people with their mark-up added.
Arizona Willie posted at 12:53 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Rich, conservatives are always claiming that " taxes don't matter to Corporations -- they just pass them through " and that is a farce.
If taxes didn't matter companies wouldn't spent millions of dollars on lobbiests to write special legislation for them giving them various tax breaks and shelters etc. etc.
Companies would not negotiate with cities and states for tax breaks as inducements to site their operations there.
Yes, companies DO pass on many taxes but they cannot pass on the Corporate Income Tax. They can calculate their selling prices to make enough to allow for paying the CIT and still having the profit they want left -- but they can't avoid paying it except by the loopholes they bribe Congressmen to write for them.
If companies COULD pass on the CIT you would get a bill from General Motors or Ford the year after you bought a vehicle from them to re-imburse them for the CIT they wound up paying.
TAXES DO MATTER TO CORPORATIONS === A LOT.
Rich posted at 3:37 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Willie,
You have a really skewed idea of reality. A tax, any tax is a feature of overhead, the prices are set based on that. Of course taxes matter to corporations, anything that raises overhead matters. The loopholes are more political than corporate, however. They are how politicians get the money to run and politicians, not corporations are the beneficiaries. Take CIT, pay it, becomes a feature of overhead, along with the expense to collect and pay it, and it is often borrowed so interest is added. This is passed along to the consumer who now, not only pays the tax, but the expense to collect it, and the interest on it as well. Basically taxing a corporation merely makes it an expensive tax collector. In the end, the end user pays all taxes, taxation through such 'feel good' means as taxing business and corporations is just more expense for the consumer, promotes fraud in government and leaves the government with less money.
Ateam1 posted at 6:07 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Big corporations are given these tax cuts by promising to create more jobs.So who wins? Another thing is government waste,it has to STOP!!! Also look how many times a vehicle will be sold in its lifetime and taxed every time it's sold.How about property tax? When the housing market tanked in 07 or 08 how long did it take for your property reasessment to be performed and your taxes adjusted? Our problem in this country is'nt a lack of money, it is foolish and wasteful spending by big government and an administration catering to people who think this country owes them something !
Leon Ceniceros posted at 6:14 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
LOL...boy, I really lifted the dumpster lid with this letter. All the Commie Wanna-Be's are scurrying around trying to justify their Anti-Capitalist, Anti-American convictions.
"Wealth Re-distribution" is one of Communism's major Marxist tenents. They want the successful people to be forced to support the un-successful people by "equalizing" everybody's earnings. "Fair share" doesn't mean that one person pays 40cents of every dollar that they earn to go to someone who does earn 1 "Commie-red" cent. If you want a nice life-style then do it the old-fashioned way....."GO OUT AND GET A JOB AND .....EARN YOUR OWN MONEY".
STOP FORCING A COMPLETE STRANGER TO PUT FOOD ON YOUR TABLE....GET SOME PRIDE...PUT YOUR OWN FOOD ON YOUR TABLE....DON'T FORCE OTHERS WHO THROUGH AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH OR JUST PLAIN OLD HARD WORK AND SACRIFICE HAVE MADE A NICE LIFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.
QUIT BEING A DEMOCRAT "SHEEP-LE" AND GET A JOB AND JOIN THE AMERICAN ....."PEOPLE".
DOMESTIC ANIMALS LIKE DOGS AND PIGS NEED MAN TO FEED THEM AND GIVE THEM SHELTER FROM THE ELEMENTS....COME ON....LIBERALS....ARE YOU........."DOMESTIC ANIMALS"...OR......"HUMAN BEINGS"...THAT DON'T NEED TO RELIE ON THE UNFAIR TAXATION OF OTHERS ????
YOUR CHOICE....DEMOCRAT "SHEEP-LE".....OR .....REPUBLICAN "PEOPLE".
Ateam1 posted at 7:21 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Leon; Agreed but government spending has got to change. I'm not for the robin hood bunch of liberals,i'm for everyone paying their fare share and then it being used wisely. Yeah i know, i'm dreaming!
Rich posted at 8:01 pm on Wed, Dec 5, 2012.
Ateam
It was obvious in the sixties. If everyone paid their 'Fair share' and it was used wisely, there wouldn't be a problem. Now, figure out 'fair' and 'wisely', Is the answer Mike and Willy? Young men doing nothing with a guaranteed income billionaires have to scramble daily for ? If you do it my way, be a good little lamb I'll give you a millionaires retirement? That is were it's at, with a government that over spends in trillions. What you have to look, as I have, is that Mike and Willy are retired. They didn't like what they did, didn't fight to keep doing it, I'm older, but I do my thing and want my corpse carried out of my office, If I don't have a million I am temporarily embarrassed, I swear it won't happen again. There was a time when I was in the majority. Now, I recommend my children remain expatriates. And that is you biggest problem.
wdgnas posted at 7:17 am on Thu, Dec 6, 2012.
leon: are you pro choice?
rich: Young men doing nothing with a guaranteed income billionaires have to scramble daily for ? oh yes, paris hilton and mitt romney have to scramble daily.
Corporations have no money other than what they take from people, at best taxes are passed through them, they never pay any anyway, taxing them is just taxing the people with their mark-up added.
well then if they pay no taxes, what is the point in taxing them? other than to create jobs. if it wasn't for the accountants they pay to avoid paying taxes. imagine having to spend more money in wages then the total tax bill you owe. i will have to try that trick this year.
Masterrogue666 posted at 8:58 am on Thu, Dec 6, 2012.
wdgnas: So, just because a person "has it made", the should be punished by paying higher taxes? Again, what ever happened to EQUALITY?!
VofReason posted at 12:57 pm on Thu, Dec 6, 2012.
I think a few here need to step outside the echo chamber every now and again. "greedy robber barons as they happily oppress labor worldwide". Strange, I have worked for many companies in my life and never felt that any of them were oppressing me. In fact, if I did, I would leave and go to work elsewhere. The problem comes when you have no skills and have to go to work for minimum or meager wage. Then you may feel that you are being oppressed because you are spending a lot of time and not making a lot of money. Is that the companies fault or yours? Should the company have to over pay someone to make them feel better?
wdgnas posted at 7:11 am on Fri, Dec 7, 2012.
masterrogue666: it should be a privilege for them to pay higher taxes. when i traveled nationwide and spent 250 to 300 days on the road, some of has had a competition to see who could pay the most in federal income taxes. we considered it a privilege to work that many hours in a year. i still consider it a privilege to work in this country, not a right.
i was replying to rich's comment that paris hilton and her ilk had to scramble daily.
in a recent article don mey made a comment, i am paraphrasing, 'if you want to lower your taxes, don't make as much money.' i have been saying that for years. you should have figured it out by now that if you make x amount of dollars, you will pay x amount of dollars in income taxes. also, if your property is valued at a certain amount, you will pay x amount of dollars in property taxes.
PatrioticPerson posted at 9:20 am on Fri, Dec 7, 2012.
From Tax year 1999 to 2009 the top 1% of income earners averaged 37.0% of the Federal Income tax paid. The top 5% was 57.1%, the top 10% was 68.3%, the top 25% was 85.1%, the top 50% was 96.7% and the bottom 50% was 3.3%. Enough with the Fair Share stuff.
Rich posted at 9:54 am on Fri, Dec 7, 2012.
Can't agree. The bottom half needs to start paying their fair share, the problem is that they don't, they take and when they take enough, it tanks what the upper half does. We need an alternative, minimum tax for the bottom half. It's everybody's country, and everybody needs to pay something for it. Right now, the people who pay nothing, need to give back something, pay any share at all, fair or not.
wdgnas posted at 5:45 am on Sat, Dec 8, 2012.
rich: should the tax cheats, err job creators, give back the money they got for not creating jobs?
downtownresident posted at 1:17 pm on Sat, Dec 8, 2012.
Leon,
You are a real piece of work.
VofReason posted at 2:24 pm on Mon, Dec 10, 2012.
So what we really need to do is take money from the very productive- top wage earners through taxes. Run it through the Government and out pops ten cents on the dollar and then use that to over pay someone for a make work job. Boy, that should get the economy humming in no time. Strangly I actually think there are people who believe this.