What hath the Tea Party wrought?
I ask that because of what I see they’re doing to my town, Gilbert.
With the Town Council now in the almost complete grip of the Tea Party, some, ah, interesting things have happened.
About a year ago, the majority decided to phase out the town’s contributions to non-profit organizations around town, groups like the Boys’ and Girls’ Club, the Gilbert Senior Center, the Salvation Army, the Child Crisis Center, and Save the Family.
This funding amounted to at most $500,000 yearly. But the majority voted to get rid of it, one councilman calling it welfare, and the majority believing it should be done in the private sector.
Soon after, however, the same folks voted for corporate welfare, giving a large development along the San Tan Freeway a nice tax break, amounting to millions of dollars. In fact, the town has now set up a formal mechanism to dole out corporate welfare.
So oddity number one: The Tea Party folks who don’t believe in welfare apparently are very selective about what that word means.
Oddity number two came recently, courtesy of a Tea Party favorite in new Councilman Jared Taylor, who used his government position to pry into others’ privacy.
Taylor sent a questionnaire to certain Town of Gilbert employees, what he called a “Getting to Know You” form.
Most of the questions were innocuous, but three were clearly political:
“When was the last time you had a meaningful study of the US Constitution?’
“What do you believe is the role of government?”
“What do you do in your day-to-day tasks to protect the rights of Gilbert residents?”
Why ask those questions? According to an Arizona Republic article, Taylor believes he has the right to know the ideology of Gilbert employees.
Which begs this question: Why? And what did he plan to do with that information?
I asked him those two questions via email, and have yet to receive a reply.
I thought the Tea Party types believed in the sanctity of our privacy; Taylor’s intrusion into the privacy of Town of Gilbert employees seems to be, well, odd. Not to mention disturbing.
Most disturbing is how the Council has handled the unions representing many of the employees, including police and fire. At a recent meeting, after declaring the firefighters to be “a valuable part of the Gilbert family,” the Council voted to end meet and confer with police and fire unions next year.
Why disturbing? Two answers. “Meet and Confer” means just that — unions in our state cannot force binding arbitration on any entity. If in negotiations with the firefighters union the Town didn’t like what was happening, the Town could simply impose its decision on the union. No strikes. No work slowdowns. Meet and Confer simply gives employee groups a formal way to negotiate and cooperate with the Town.
Beyond that, according to a Republic article, the town administrators like the process.
So if it’s been successful and creates no danger of strikes, why change the process? And to what?
Who knows? The Council didn’t say. But we know why — the Tea Party loves to demonize unions. Any unions. Including those that have little power, like here in Arizona.
So here we are, one year into Tea Party rule in Gilbert, and this is what they have to show for their efforts. Lord help us.
Mike McClellan is a Gilbert resident and former English teacher at Dobson High School in Mesa.
mnjcpa posted at 8:24 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Mike- Perfect example of how you've fallen in line with the `thought police` of the MSM blaming the `Tea Party` for EVERYTHING. It's difficult to read your article Mike with any sense of respect when you start it off with a broad generalization that typecasts people.
I don't know the issues of Gilbert, nor have the time to research it, but I'm ALL IN for a council that attempts to balance a budget, something vacant in a liberal's agenda. The Obama administration STILL hasn't had a budget passed and STILL hasn't been held accountable for it.
Who the people are that are affected isn't the issue. It's that no one, business, governmental entity, can operate in perpetual deficits and there isn't an endless supply of benefits. Kudos to the council for NOT spending recklessly.
Rich posted at 8:56 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
The Commerce Department said Wednesday the economy contracted at an annual rate of 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter.
At least Gilbert's trying. Personally I'd like the answers to Taylor's questions published.
The bureaucrats doing the answering are the most likely of all government employees to violate everybody's rights, while mumbling, "Just doin' my job."
retired03 posted at 8:57 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
As usual ceniceros, your comment/opinion makes no sense and is born of ignorance. At least I know I can count on you. The days off you hammered home about teachers falls within the days off the students are given, besides that, they do indeed work during those holidays. Summer vacation? I know quite a few teachers that work second jobs during the summer to make ends meet. Teachers do not make a lot of money as you insinuate. And, 500 grand IS a small price to pay for the services the author mentioned. IT IS NOT WELFARE. I don't know the math but it probably works out to about a 1/4 cent tax increase for citizens. Besides that, some programs receive grants from the federal government. The government is there to serve the people, not thrust their ideals on them that's common sense 101. @ mnjspa this author is not blaming everything on the tea party. And, how did you get operating a city on a deficit out of his article? Neither you nor ceniceros addressed his comments directly. Instead, you resorted to the same old rhetoric, defending the tea party. I have a clue for you, the tea party is losing the battle and popularity in this country, for the very reasons this author talks about. The tea party is nothing more than bent on imposing their ideas on the population in the name of "what's right for America." Unfortunately that's no better than some stranger on a street corner trying to tell me what's best for me.
chuckles3 posted at 9:02 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Really Mike, this is all you have? The town is actually trying to help create jobs, and sends out a stupid survey of employees? And is putting the brakes on unions inside taxpayer funded entities? The horror, the horror.
You really need to do better Mike. Compare Gilbert to a town run by Democrats that is about the same size. You might have more to be upset about there.
Cerulean posted at 9:11 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Here is a quiz on the Constitution that I invite everyone to take.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0106/How-much-do-you-know-about-the-US-Constitution-A-quiz/How-much-do-you-know-about-the-US-Constitution-A-quiz
Afterword, tell me how tax breaks to large developers is appropriate? Today, 41% of the houses on the market are purchased with CASH, driving house prices higher. The houses remain empty or rented, soaking up individual wealth.
mnjcpa posted at 9:24 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
retired -
Both you and Mike have fallen in to the `thought police` story that the Tea Party is responsible for everything, and they are dead and over. We'll see about that, but if history is a guidepost you couldn't be more wrong. Keep listening though if it makes you feel superior.
Expecting city, state, and federal governments that I pay taxes to hold people to accountability to live within their means is outlandish? It's basis finance 101 retired.
mnjcpa posted at 10:33 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
cerulean -
I would ask Obama about why General Electric pays ZERO income tax that happens to own NBC/MSNBC with their congo line of circus acts that are nothing more than mouthpieces for Obama.
The constitution and the tax code are about 150 years apart. There's ZERO correlation. The problem with the tax code is it's been used to solve SOCIAL issues, not tax income. This has created the problem that people that pay NOTHING are making the decisions for the people that pay the majority..
openureyes posted at 10:57 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
All you have to do is read the column to see that the first problem Mike's describing isn't just cutting half a million from social programs. It's cutting half a million from social programs then turning those savings (several times over) right around as corporate tax breaks. Arguing only the merits of the cut ignores the point.
Cerulean posted at 10:58 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Mnjcpa, I made no correlation with the Constitution and tax code. I said take the quiz. (Tea partiers want to know when YOU had a meaningful study of it.) Afterword’s describe how welfare to mega wealthy developers is appropriate in today’s housing situation.
I understand your answer to mean that you do not know or care.
Does basis finance 101 mean that mega wealthy corporations are also expected to “live within their means”?
And if they are; why did the council vote to give millions in tax breaks to them?
mnjcpa posted at 11:43 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
When you connect paying taxes and the constitution, it's not a leap to think that's what you're implying.
Tea party members do direct people to the constitution - but that has NOTHING to do with tax breaks. They believe the overreach of the Obama administration is a threat to our liberty, and they're right. We don't fall for the tired, circus act of the thought police that have influenced your thinking.
I don't know the facts around the tax breaks for the developers and don't have time to research it, but it usually has a monetary component that is beneficial to a city. Helping labor union employees retire in their 50's isn't anything I'm keen on supporting because it's unsustainable. I wholeheartedly support council members that do what they're elected to do, which is manage the city's money within a budget something COMPLETELY foreign to a liberal.
BTW Cerulean, those mega-wealthy corporations have what's called `shareholders`. Those people are typically retired and live off the earnings from the dividends those companies made. So no, I'm not in to punishing them further or you've taken money out of the pockets of the very people you want to protect.
Roscoe in AZ posted at 11:52 am on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
This is my open letter to the Businesses Community in the Town of Gilbert :
I will take my business to Tempe and Chandler where they have Intelligent Elected Officials. [beam]
OldMan posted at 1:38 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
This will be interesting to watch.
If questionnaires were sent out with the intent to identify non-aligned employees, and these said employees are given unsatisfactory job reviews, then fired, YIKES!!!!
School employees won't be far behind. Then the district education will controlled as to the curriculum.
Maybe even high school football forced to go back to the wishbone, not this socialist spread offense.
llacey posted at 1:40 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Did anyone from the press cover the Closed School Board meeting in Gilbert last night?
VofReason posted at 2:39 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Maybe Mike McC's article should be titled why would people against taxes use them for Corporate welfare. Though that would contrast people who align to the "Tea Party" who are for lower taxes and less Government
timdlittle posted at 3:27 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Embarrassing. In four years most of them will be gone. Americans in general are tired of the shrill ranting moral police that has become the tea party and certain groups of Gilbert residents. Let's not forget bout wonder kin voting against alcohol permits of 5 local bushiness . Looking to impose their theocratic version of Government enjoyed by Iran and Saudi Arabia. I fought that war. Twice. And I will continue here in Gilbert with my vote and my dollars.
chatmandu002 posted at 4:39 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Mike,
Just a reminder, the Tea Party 3 core values are;
1. Fiscal responsibility.
2. Constitutionally limited government.
3. Free market enterprise.
onerebel posted at 5:21 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
chatmandu002, How dare you use those dirty hateful words in front of the sweet, love filled Liberals. Use nice peaceful words that they find calming like, Racist Republican's, Redneck GOP, Tea Party Bigot's, abortion on demand, and the one they find euphoric, Government Entitlements. There now we can coexist with warm hearts again. [smile]
Mike McClellan posted at 5:26 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
1. and 3. chat, so explain how they deep six the charity contribution but give away millions to a developer in tax subsidies. And on top of that, create a slush fund for corporate welfare.
How is that "fiscal responsibility"?
2, So explain how a manager (the councilman) can invade an employee's privacy by asking questions about the employee's politics. I talked with my daughter, who is a corporate manager supervising the Southwest for her company. She told me that if she asked her managers or area supervisors those questions, she'd be fired.
And when I was a department chair, I was always cautioned about asking personal questions that were private matters, that those kind of questions could lead directly to lawsuits when interviewing prospective employees.
So how are Taylor's questions aligned with "Constitutionally limited government"?
And, here's the kicker: Almost all of the council is either self-declared Tea Party members or aligned with the Tea Party.
JMJ posted at 6:05 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
Gilbert has always been a sinkhole of "do-gooders" who do only for their own kind with their very same interests. Perhaps the new temple will have a recreational component to get kids off the streets and given them direction since the Boys and Girls Club is being overlooked. Isn't that the whole overarching purpose of those "in charge" in Gilbert? I won't live in Mesa or Gilbert for myriad reasons, the main one being that "the good people" routinely overlook "the rest of us".
The "town" of Gilbert isn't as squeaky clean as it tries to appear.
Rich posted at 6:30 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
"So explain how a manager (the councilman) can invade an employee's privacy by asking questions about the employee's politics." Because he's dealing with people who are running government on a grass roots level and in order to be an effective executive he needs the information. The public is also entitled to the information as these are the people they deal with government through.
Rich posted at 6:31 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
"I talked with my daughter, who is a corporate manager supervising the Southwest for her company. She told me that if she asked her managers or area supervisors those questions, she'd be fired." And rightly so, politics matter if you work in the public sector, not the private sector.
Rich posted at 6:32 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
"And when I was a department chair, I was always cautioned about asking personal questions that were private matters, that those kind of questions could lead directly to lawsuits when interviewing prospective employees." Shouldn't, as public employees the people have a right to know that. You cheated all of us.
Rich posted at 6:32 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
"So how are Taylor's questions aligned with "Constitutionally limited government"? That's rather obvious isn't it? These people are where the rubber meets the road for government.
Spam filter attack, this thing is really off the wall.
downtownresident posted at 6:40 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
mnjcpa ,
Did Greg Western indoctrinate you to chant "thought police", or did you come up with that by yourself?
chatmandu002 ,
Come on! Even you don't really believe that is really the 3 core values of your rag tag group of radicals, do you?
Remember Olivia Cortez? Which core value did she represent?? What was Lester and his niece really doing in that yard??
Will Gilbert just become the next Short Creek? No outsiders allowed here? Only pure white...........................never mind.
Mike, you are right. It's Gilbert. Let the inquisitions begin.
Deddzone posted at 10:55 pm on Wed, Jan 30, 2013.
History will note the Tea Party was the beginning of the end of the Republican Party. The GOP embraced it and brought crazy, conspiracy, fear, Koch Brothers and twisted reality.
What a mess....
6thgenarizonian posted at 8:55 am on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
All that they're doing is creating a bigger gap between classes. The richer are getting richer and the poor is getting poorer. Perhaps I'm biased because I used to go to the Boys and Girls Club and all they do is help produce productive members of society. They have tons of recreational sports and extra curricular activities. What is a kid to all summer long when their parents are working? I've seen first hand some troubled kids focus more of their attention and energy towards programs the Boys and Girls Club offers. It's an investment towards the youth and future of our state/country!! not welfare.
Do you really think that the tax break given to the development project will trickle down to the workers and their families?
Also, can I ask any goverment worker their thoughts on abortion? or religious views? or sexual orientation? Since they work for me, Am I really entitled to know?
Arizona Willie posted at 11:17 am on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
People are fond of saying we pay the salaries of government employees ( even though we do not ) and that they work for us ( again they do not ). The basis for their claim is that they pay taxes to the government and the government uses some of their tax dollars to pay government employees.
On that basis, since we pay ALL retail enterprises their prices which goes to the owners and they pay employees out of the money we pay them, just like the government pays it's employees, then we should be able to demand to know the political opinions and religious views of ALL employees in ANY business --- because they work for us and we pay them ( no matter how indirectly that happens, it's OUR money just like right wingers claim taxes they have paid are OUR money-- incorrectly ).
JMJ posted at 12:07 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
I never "worked for" anyone. I worked for my family and its needs. The way people keep a semblance of a class system in place is to say that they have a right to know how people think. They don't. The thought police only propagates the right answers that people want to hear, not necessarily what people really think. Did you know that there were Jews in Hitler's army? Do you think, for one moment, they said what they really thought? Nein. They answered what they knew were the "right" answers. To stay alive. Just like there have always been gays in the military. Who did not ask, nor did they tell, for fear of the gestapo mentality that would have demonized and vilified and ended their careers--and did.
JMJ posted at 12:08 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
Bleeding heart liberal? Isn't this nation about Liberty? And Justice? For the few who would make sure their little peons [rhymes with...oh, never mind] march in lockstep in their little feifdoms where the serfs know their places and the lairds get fat and lazy? Same exact thought process, different century.
Watch what happens in this little dark pit of cyberspace when real, live people disagree with the morons [sic] who think they think they are in charge of the dialogue in an open forum in America with a "c".
It's MY money when I go to businesses, if I so choose, to purchase something I need for my family. Even then, the politics and religion of the owners matters not. Sorry if you feel used.
LOL. I agree, it is moronic to think that anyone owes anyone an explanation as to how they "think" and when they last read the Constitution. It's like asking people when they last read the Bible. Or MAD magazine, for that matter.
Maybe there will be a chip that can be implanted and programmed at some future date so the insecure 'tards at the top can program their little minions to say and do everything they think is appropriate...? I'm stickin' to potato chips.
JMJ posted at 12:09 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
And, SPAM. I think I'll have...SPAM...with those potato chips. The SPAM police are alive and well and living at the EVT.
Rich posted at 12:31 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
No Willie, the difference is proprietary. The citizens own the country, they do not own a private business.
VofReason posted at 1:18 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
Back to my original point, so essentially, if correct, the point would be that those saying they are for the Tea Party or aligned are not acting within the framework of what the Tea Party represents. Not that the Tea Party is wrong. Unless one of the commentors can find issue with the below? If so, which one and why?
1. Fiscal responsibility.
2. Constitutionally limited government.
3. Free market enterprise.
VofReason posted at 1:19 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
Also, just to make sure we are clear, Tea Party some how bad with the above 3 ideals. Occupy Wall Street good for , well who really knows what their ideals are.
Cerulean posted at 2:31 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
VofR, if you are a tea partier you must admit that the Gilbert town council does not live up to the guidelines.
mnjcpa posted at 2:35 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
Rich is right AZWillie. Both you and I pay the salaries of government employees. If I pay someone's salary, they do work for me. Where else do you think the money comes from?
This is why it's so appalling that governmental workers retire in their 50's, 15 - 20 years before their private sector counterparts can come close to doing the same. And their pensions are GUARANTEED.
You and I are paying for that privilege. I say they are the real 1%.
Arizona Willie posted at 2:55 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
mnjcpa: you do NOT pay the salary of Government Employees unless you personally write their checks and they come out of your bank account.
Once you pay your taxes it is the Government's money --- NOT YOURS.
Just as when someone pays your company for your services. The money is no longer theirs. It belongs to the company.
What would you say to a customer who comes into the business after your dealings are done and he paid his bill and tried to tell your company what kind of computers to use because it was HIS money?
Same thing.
Claiming taxes you have paid are YOUR money is a big LIE.
It has been used by the radio hate spewers to manipulate the stupid.
Surely, you aren't one of those they have manipulated are you?
Mike McClellan posted at 4:32 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
VofReason:
1. The self-declared Tea Party members of the Town Council (also supported by various Tea Party groups), voted against helping non-profits, calling that welfare. But at the same time, they not only voted to give away millions in tax dollars as subsidies to a specific developer, they created a slush fund to pick business "winners" to attract to Gilbert.
So much for fiscal responsibility. Unless, of course, you believe corporate welfare is somehow better than welfare for non-profits.
2. So when a government agent -- a Town Councilman, a de facto manager -- wants to know what an employee's politics are, how does that square with limited government? Unless there is some evidence of the employee's politics harming his decision making or harming the town in some way, that employee's politics are none of the Councilman's business.
What happened to their right to privacy? Isn't that a hallmark of "limited government"?
3. Free market enterprise -- the biggest joke in this case. By setting up their corporate slush fund, the Council picks winners and losers, tilting the free market in favor of the winners.
Now, you might try to say that these Councilmembers are not really Tea Party types. But not only are some of them self-identified as Tea Party members, as I said above, East Valley Tea Parties endorsed their candidacies.
I guess they were Tea Party before they weren't.
mnjcpa posted at 4:41 pm on Thu, Jan 31, 2013.
Willie
Taxes and Government
Our income taxes go to the US, State, and City governments. Those same income taxes FINANCE all of the departments within the government. This includes personnel employed at each department. My taxes went up thanks to your president into the sinkhole of governmental waste, which includes financing pensions that are substantially better than private sector employees. Summary: my taxes are used to pay those employees.
Private sector
Customer pays a business for services and products. Owner uses that revenue to pay expenses including being regulated to death and taxed too much. Whatever is left is kept by the owners. Basic free market capitalism.
I don’t have a CHOICE whether to pay my taxes; customers of private sector businesses have a CHOICE. This is a simple concept that Rich was alluding to; a simple concept in first semester business school.
I'm always baffled why there are so many low information voters. And then I read comments like yours Willie and it's easy to understand how liberals get reelected. If you would take the time to learn the topic you would be far better off rather than falling in line with what the media tells you to think.
Cerulean posted at 8:24 am on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
You DO have a choice, dear mnjcpa, you have the choice to do what many people choose. There are sooo many countries you could choose to live if taxes are your bane.
I would much rather pay a living wage to an individual to teach our children than to give tax incentives to developers. Hedge Funds, (people with more money than they know what to do with) buying in a depressed housing market are driving house prices up, forcing those who cannot afford to drop $60,000 - $100,000 in cash to seek financing on a more expensive home. The housing development that the tp council chose to give tax incentives to has been in the works for years. They do not need a subsidy.
IMO tea party boys are not very smart.
Arizona Willie posted at 8:28 am on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
mnjcpa: don't have time for a complete post but quickly -- you, of all people, should know that you DO have a choice about paying taxes. Many people DON'T pay their taxes and they get away with it for years and years.
Also, many times customers DON'T have a choice about which private business to use. It may be the only air-conditioning contractor in town or the only tax service in town. Lots of occasions when then are not multiple businesses competing against each other.
mnjcpa posted at 9:04 am on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
Cerulean and Willie - I have a choice to pay my taxes? Seriously?
I laid out the premise of why I pay a government workers a lush pension, and your response is to evade the law and risk imprisonment? Or move to a foreign country to evade them as well? Neither one of you could stop and say to yourself, `maybe I should understand that better?' Or if you're so concerned about tax breaks why doesn't it bother you that General Electric pays ZERO tax, at the same time broadcasting Obama propaganda machines through NBC/MSNBC?
You both have been watching too many Obama commercials about off-shore accounts and it's no wonder liberals keep getting reelected.
Cerulean posted at 10:18 am on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
Oh, so paying taxes is not your bane. Rather it is to whom the tax is paid to. I GET IT. You want Arizona to pay foreign developers to take our wealth out of state rather than pay a teacher who will recirculate money here, in our local economy.
IMO tea party boys are not very smart.
mnjcpa posted at 4:44 pm on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
Cerulean - Willie said I did not pay a government employee's lush pension. I very accurately pointed out why I do. I'm absolutely not for paying my hard earned money to see it go down the government sinkhole of waste, which includes making a federal worker wealthy in their 50's. The concept of `civil servant` has lost it's meaning when these people get disproportionately bigger benefits than the very people that are paying for them - you and I.
I follow the rules set by the elected officials, otherwise I'm a criminal. So NO, I don't have a choice whether I pay taxes or not. I don't make the law whether it's General Electric or a foreign developer. Some people are actually open to understanding these issues rather than stubbornly clinging to what they believe to be true.
If I were paying a teacher, that would be fine. Public education is financed from `property taxes` Cerulean. And while I've been paying those taxes for years, we chose years ago to remove our kids from the public school system because we saw how liberals were infecting the once great American education system. We prefer to take on the expense so our kids would learn `how to think`, rather than `what to think`. You might try it.
Mike McClellan posted at 6:50 pm on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
Just curious, mnjcpa, just what kind of liberal indoctrination did your kids have to deal with?
I'm serious. Except for one government teacher I knew, I couldn't tell you of any teachers I've encountered who infected kids.
So just what happened?
nodon7 posted at 7:36 pm on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
The fox "news" drones on here mindlessly parroting what their lord and master has taught them is laugh out loud funny. There is a reason Gilbert that you are considered a national joke. Thanks for confirming your status.
mnjcpa posted at 8:03 pm on Fri, Feb 1, 2013.
Mike - we prefer our family learns how to think, not what to think. It's not the teachers; frankly they're underpaid and under-appreciated. The issue is you're required to teach what comes out of Washington. And because there's a union involved, democrat propaganda becomes part of the message. Haven't met a teacher yet that isn't a lockstep liberal. We've had two different teachers for kids & grand kids that escaped public education and are successful entrepreneurs. They feel exactly the way we do.
mnjcpa posted at 8:43 am on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
nodon7 - not sure what lord and master you're referring to, but Fox is as bad as MSNBC. If you really believe this is a Democrat/Republican debate then you've missed the point.
Arizona Willie posted at 8:52 am on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
mnjcpa: there is an individual who sometimes posts here under the nom de plume of " Mesateacher " who is an ultra right wing knuckle dragger of the highest rank.
Arizona Willie posted at 8:57 am on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
nodon7: there is NOTHING funny about the Faux News droids.
It is sad to see so much bitterness and hatred personified in these people.
As you read post after post from them you realize they believe everyone is out to scoo them.
They are even jealous and filled with hatred for the bottom 47% who wind up with zero tax liability because their income is so low.
They want to force their " moral beliefs " on everyone else.
Totally against the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on.
No, sir, there is absolutely nothing funny about hate spewing Fox News or its siblings or those who drink the Faux News tea.
Mike McClellan posted at 3:28 pm on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
mn, I agree that schools should help kids learn how to think. So what kind of objectionable material did the public schools use, or what did the teachers try to indoctrinate your kids with?
Rich posted at 7:48 pm on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
Mike,
Tell me who these people are: Richard Brautigan, Gregory Corso, Claude Simon, Marguerite Duras, Arthur Machen, Ambrose Bierce, Carlos Fuentes, and William Saroyan.
Then when you are done you publish the reading list you gave your students to read and study. And I will show you how you indoctrinated them.
They learned your prejudices. Which you showcase here.
One ground rule, get this stupid spam thing turned off. You work for them I don't and the discussion can't be done with it in place.
You up to it stud?
onerebel posted at 9:36 pm on Sat, Feb 2, 2013.
Funny how the Liberals like to hammer FOX NEWS, yet it's their beloved MSNBC that has been caught doctoring tapes, and has host that were glad the hurricane hit to advance their agenda. You want to witness true hatetred and bitterness watch MSNBC for a day!
pd posted at 9:14 am on Sun, Feb 3, 2013.
While I disagree with Mike's comparison of cutting social program to funding for business tax-breaks (apples to oranges), I do have to agree that the TEA party has been taken over by an unreasonable, stubborn bunch who don't seem to think they have to make decisions based on actual data. It is true that unions in this state have virtually no power to strike; they simply provided associations for employees to have a voice in salary and workplace negotiations. Any modern organizational consultant would agree that this is a must (Steve Covey, Peter Drucker, etc.) As a conservative who thinks that Barack Obama is steering our country into a massive fiscal train wreck, I was stunned that the TEA party refused to endorse Romney. I've heard TEA party friends make ludicrous statements like, "Oh, they're the same" when comparing Obama to Romney. I'm a free-market Reagan Republican, but lately I want nothing to do with the TEA party, which is sad because 4 years ago I thought I identified with them. Their stubborn pride is ruining my Republican party.
mnjcpa posted at 9:25 am on Sun, Feb 3, 2013.
Exactly Rich, and why our kids haven't been in the public schools for 15 years.
As a result, they've grown up to be independent thinkers, travel globally, and make decisions logically. It's cost us a lot of money, but our kids haven't been infected with liberal doctrine.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 10:17 am on Sun, Feb 3, 2013.
We have to forgive Mike. Don't forget he was a teacher. He will always hate the Tea Party because they stand for protecting the American "Hard Workers" not the American "Hardly if Ever Workers". The Tea Party stands for the ideals of our Founding Fathers, not the socialist "New Deal" of the Democrats. The Tea Party espouses people to "bring themselves up by the boot straps" not "living off the Welfare Dollars, Unemployment Dollars, Food Stamp Dollars, Section-8 Dollars, and HUD Dollars" that strangers are being taxed to death for.
Here it is in simple form, Mike.
Tea Party = Capitalism
Democrat Party = Socialism
Take your pick, Mike......take your pick.
Mike McClellan posted at 3:08 pm on Sun, Feb 3, 2013.
So, mnjcpa, just what specifically happened to your kids in public school?
Still waiting to understand it.
By the way, if you've read a few of the authors Rich cites, and knew your kids were reading them, you'd think the schools were indoctrinating your kids without doubt.
Trout Fishing in America is a fine little novel, one I've had kids read and write about. It's by one of the authors Rich cites. Check it our, mn. Or maybe check our Corso and his sometimes whimsical-sounding but very serious poetry. Good stuff. But you, mn, might find it to be "indoctrination."
And Bierce, well, don't even consider him, though his story "Occurence at Owl Creek Bridge" is in many high school anthologies.
mnjcpa posted at 8:45 am on Mon, Feb 4, 2013.
Mike -It only makes common sense Mike. Let me say again it's NOT the teachers, it's the organization they're apart of. You can't have a union without the Democrat party propaganda machine behind it. It starts at the ivy league schools and makes it way in to public education.
My son was harassed continuously because he wanted to (eh gad!) join the military. Political choices were scrutinized, and if not Democrat, were harassed. A history teacher that failed my daughter over a thought-provoking, well researched article about Lincoln that portrayed a less than accepted view towards his actions. And the curriculum itself as Rich points out is laced with liberal propaganda. Too many instances to count.
That's how insidious liberal indoctrination works, where people learn `what` to think rather than `how` to think. This is how you get a President, without a second of real world experience, running the most powerful country in the world. Looking back, and the success of our kids, we can attribute it to pulling our kids from public schools, hiring creative, entrepreneurial teachers that create a curriculum free of utopian thinking.
Cerulean posted at 8:55 am on Mon, Feb 4, 2013.
tea party = elitism, actually wealth elitism.
What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815–1848 is a Pulitzer Prize-winning book written in 2007 by historian Daniel Walker Howe.
It is interesting!
mnjcpa posted at 10:12 am on Mon, Feb 4, 2013.
Democrat party = elitism
As so eloquently illustrated by Al Gore. `We hate oil`, of course we do. That's unless of course we can sell our company to it and profit hundreds of millions.
No better illustration of the hypocrisy of the Democrat party.
SEE posted at 12:43 pm on Tue, Feb 5, 2013.
Mike, I agree with you that the Tea Party tactics and philosophy is not good for our community or country. I wish I could say I'm surprised by many of the ruthless and inconsiderate statements and name calling by those who disagree. But that's why I'm not a republican or tea party member. I actually have compasssion and believe people could and should have differing opinions. And... hard for some to imagaine... I actually believe there is often more than one right way of doing some things.
I don't agree with philosphies or ideologies that want to place too many limits or rules on people as the far right wants to do. I don't want them to decide what is right for me, but let me make my own responsible decisions. As long as my decisions don't hurt or negatively affect anyone else, it shouldn't be legislated. That's less government -- a tea party core value.
Jared Taylor's recent comments about how he will categorically vote "no" for all liquor licenses in Gilbert is a simple example of this. He can have his moral reasons for doing so even thought I wouldn't agree with them. But as a council member who should be more concerned about income for the city and the fact that there is nothing illegal or illicit about alcohol, voting "no" just to vote "no" ignores his responsiblity to the majority of the residents of the city of Gilbert.
mnjcpa posted at 8:37 am on Wed, Feb 6, 2013.
SEE - looks like the name calling MSM has worked on you as well. Let's call it accurately. Compassion and love for all is a ruse that you've bought. I could care less about liquor store purchases. Let's think a little bigger.
A larger statist government monitoring our every move spending money we don't have is a bet for failure. I'll put a bet that Obama will go through 8 years of office without once getting a budget approved. That's because he has no intentions of putting his name to an actual effort to manage our tax dollars. Irresponsible - where's the outrage?
SEE posted at 3:30 pm on Wed, Feb 6, 2013.
MNJCPA - thanks for proving my point so quickly.
As for the economy, take ECO 101. People and governments spending money actually HELPS the economy. Which means things get bought and sold and jobs are kept (not lost) and profits are made. I hope the Federal Gov't spends more, not less. Increases the military, not cuts it back. More money for the country means a balanced budget. Try running a store on Main St, America. Your 10 customers normally spend $100/day, but now do "cuts" and spend $50... well, maybe you can't do the math.
mnjcpa posted at 4:15 pm on Wed, Feb 6, 2013.
You've proven nothing See other than a bizarre understanding of how capitalism works. The federal government creates nothing of value; the private sector is where an economy grows. And there's NOTHING that the Obama administration is doing or has done but attempt to destroy the private sector. Your disgust for the Tea Party falls right in line with what the MSM tells you to believe.
Thanks for making my earlier point.