With the mixed verdict the Supreme Court gave SB 1070, Jan Brewer’s comment that the Court “vindicated” Arizona was one of the silliest reactions to the decision.
Sillier — and more dangerous — has been the political cowardice displayed by those who should know better.
That would be the politicians — from the president on down — in whom we put our trust to Do the Right Thing.
But with immigration, those politicians have done anything but that.
Sure, you could agree with the president’s order to impose a de facto Dream Act. And you could agree with how ICE will pursue only the criminal element among the illegal immigrants who are detained by local law enforcement.
But just as the Court ruled that allowing states to create their own immigration laws would lead to chaos, a patchwork of presidential orders cannot replace a systematic, rational immigration policy.
The current piecemeal approach comes from the cowardice of many who should know better.
We witnessed the political cowardice in 2010, when John McCain — once one of the Senate’s main voices of reason on immigration — cowered in the face of a challenge by the buffoonish J.D. Hayworth, and retreated to a “Build the Dang Fence” strategy.
I’m afraid the same transformation’s taking place now with Jeff Flake, a true blue conservative who also saw the need for comprehensive immigration reform. Now, though, he seems to have backtracked, most probably for political reasons only.
And with that vacuum created by our leading politicians’ inaction, the extremists and exploiters get to define the issue.
So we’ve spent the last couple of years in the hands of Russell Pearce’s SB 1070, a law that has zero — zero — effect on border enforcement. And instead of a calm consideration of what to do with the 11 million or so illegal immigrants in our country, we’ve argued about his handiwork, most of which has now either been declared unconstitutional or subject to further litigation.
And we’ve been subjected to Joe Arpaio’s “crime suppression” sweeps, publicity stunts that ensure further media exposure for the publicity-desperate sheriff.
And we have the folks on the other side, the ones who don’t seem to have any solution beyond “Get rid of Arpaio,” or “Down with SB 1070,” neither of which is a solution.
But maybe, maybe, with the Supreme Court rebuking Arizona, we’ll see, finally, Congressional action next year.
Maybe we’ll see a bill that would combine the border enforcement tactics used by Obama — the increased deportation, the bump in border agents, the use of drones to better patrol the border — with a national method that would allow employers to detect employees here illegally, with punishment for employers who then continue to hire illegal immigrants, with a plan to allow otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants to reside and work in our country, with a better temporary worker program.
We know that in some areas, illegal immigrants take jobs from American citizens, mostly because they are willing to work off the books for less than what the employer would have to pay an American worker. And we know in other areas, American citizens seem to shun the work only illegal immigrants will do. By providing a legal path to remaining in our country, we could solve both problems.
Employers would have to pay the same to the now-legal immigrants as they would an American worker, and the now-legal immigrants would have no reasons to remain in the shadows, taking lower pay from their employers. This would also provide the work pool labor-intensive jobs like harvesting requires.
That’s a lot to do. But polls indicate that most Americans want that kind of solution. For most Americans — if polls are accurate — border enforcement is a priority. And legislation would have to codify better enforcement policies, some of which the Obama Administration has already begun. At the same time, most Americans are for some path to legal residency for our current illegal immigrants.
The Court’s decision implies that Congress and the president must act. If we’re lucky, maybe the slap in the face the Court gave the extremists and the exploiters gives other politicians the backbone needed to enact a sane, comprehensive policy.
Maybe.
chuckles3 posted at 4:45 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
Very calm and seemingly reasonable. Nice try.
By some estimates, about 500 thousand illegals left AZ in the wake of Sb1070 and the recession. If there are no jobs, there are no illegals, unless they are on the Government dole. And lookee, lookee, we have a budget surplus in this State.
Stands to reason if all 50 States had passed the law, a good percentage of the 11 million would be back in their home countries. Pair that with increasing deportations(especially of criminals) and you are on your way to a solution to the problem.
"a plan to allow otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants to reside and work in our country, with a better temporary worker program."
Yes I believe the Dream act allows for this.....something like paying 3 of the last 5 years taxes, being allowed in state tuition when legally from out of state....yes, special rights US Citizens and those pursuing LEGAL citizenship don't enjoy.
By all means lets make special allowances for this now protected group. I wonder what the process is for me to retroactively become an illegal so I can skip 2 years of taxes and be allowed to send my kids to USC for in-State tuition.
"At the same time, most Americans are for some path to legal residency for our current illegal immigrants."
Well Mike, most American don't vote and half don't pay Federal income taxes. A good number of the rest of us disagree with special treatment for this or any other protected class of people. We're called bigots, racists and worse.
Cerulean posted at 4:54 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
Mike, I agree [thumbup]
Accuracy posted at 5:38 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
Columnist Mike McClellan points out: “If we’re lucky, maybe the slap in the face the Court gave the extremists and the exploiters gives other politicians the backbone needed to enact a sane, comprehensive policy.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
The Supreme Court’s ruling means more illegal immigration tomorrow . . . and it is a “slap in the face” for the millions of qualified immigrants now waiting outside the U.S. for their chance to immigrate legally.
The high court gave broad support to the Obama administration’s policy of limited enforcement of U.S. immigration law. The risks have just gone down, and the potential benefits have just increased for those deciding to enter our country illegally.
Immigration reform is badly needed, and most efforts by Arizona, Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, South Carolina, and Utah to deal with more illegal immigration were struck down by the justices.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 6:16 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
So "most Americans" want to add 10-20-30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM MEXICO, GUATAMALA, HONDURAS, EL SALVADOR AND POINTS SOUTH TO OUR..........UN-EMPLOYMENT ROLLS.....OUR SOCIAL SECURITY ROLLS...OR WELFARE ROLLS....OUR HUD AND SECTION-8 ROLLS AND OUR FOOD STAMP ROLLS..............PLUS TENS OF MILLIONS ADDED TO THE......OBAMA HEALTH CARE ROLLS IF THE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T STRIKE IT DOWN FIRST.
So "most Americans" want to add............1-2 TRILLION DOLLARS MORE TO OUR DEFICT TO PAY FOR THESE 10-20-30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS.........OH...AND DON'T FORGET ALL THEIR RELATIVES THAT WILL BE ON THE NEXT PLANE, TRAIN OR BUS......................FOLKS....IF ANY NOT MOST BUT ANY AMERICANS WANT TO GIVE AMNESTY TO THESE 10'S OF MILLIONS OF FOREIGN CITIZENS...............THEN AMERICA HAS A MORE SERIOUS ........MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM........THAN ANYONE COULD HAVE IMAGINED.
Dale Whiting posted at 8:53 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
Yes, Mike, Maybe!
But we both know deep down inside that we doubt it. The likes of Leon and Accuracy and even Chuckles3 will prevent any real, meaningful reforms to the long broken system. No dang fense, no sensible prioritized actions. Just the likes of Arpaio taking center stage for publicity. And these Neo-cons don't see how easily they are being played for the fools which they are!
mrconservative posted at 10:01 pm on Tue, Jun 26, 2012.
Mike, you're cag mag.
pd posted at 7:36 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Remember from American Lit Mike, Thoreau said, "For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root." If we hadn't created a semi-welfare state filled with entitlements which are now thought of as "rights," we could allow open borders because people would not come to take advantage of all the free "stuff."
Also . . . is JD really buffoonish, or simply bombastic.
Rational Human posted at 8:40 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
You are right Dale. Until our borders are respected we wont give an inch with amnesty. Either this is America or it is Mexico. Either our laws are respected or they are not. An executive branch that can thumb it's nose at our laws to allow non-citizens to take our jobs is something we should all be fighting to eliminate. Our immigration system is broken. To some of you that means that we don't allow the floodgates to be opened up. To some of us it means that even though we have the most lenient immigration policies of any other country we are being invaded and nothing is being done to reverse this problem. We will fight to defend our borders.
Rational Human posted at 8:41 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
The only fools I see here are like Dale.
Arizona Willie posted at 8:47 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Mr. McClellen -- we have a sane immigration policy.
It has worked well for many years ( for the most part ).
Tens of thousands manage to follow the law every year and successfully apply to emigrate to the U.S.A.
But, for some reason, the people who live south of our borders feel it is ok for them to jump the line and come to this country without following the law and due process.
It is just a reflection on the lawless, corrupt nature of the societies they have created in their home countries.
Exactly what we need here isn't it?
Accuracy posted at 9:03 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Dale Whiting posted: "...And these Neo-cons don't see how easily they are being played for the fools which they are!"
Again, “Open Border” advocate Dale Whiting is stressing that illegal aliens deserve “their fair share of America” based solely on their presence in the United States.
mnjcpa posted at 9:19 am on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Great article Mike - and totally agree that it starts from the top down. Rational Human's comments are totally on target but it's going to take someone with guts to create a plan while subjecting themselves to political suicide.
What's more disturbing than Brewer, Pearce, or Arpaio is the lawless corruption of the Obama administration. To pit citizens against one another, turn their back on Arizona, and to set up another boondoggle Democratic `race bait` system to have ne'er-do-wells flood the system with crank civil rights bs only demonstrates the lengths Obama will go to get reelected.
On full display for everyone to see is Community Organizing 101. I can't imagine what Obama will do if the healthcare law doesn't go his way or it becomes apparent it's going to be a landslide. I wouldn't put it past this group to put an executive order to abolish the Constitution.
Rational Human posted at 12:07 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
mnjcpa, abolishing the US Constitution is a goal of those behind the curtain, but they can't throw it out in one step, so they take small steps that will lead to their goals. Not enforcing our immigration laws is part of that. 911 could not have happened if our immigration laws were being enforced. Now we find ourselves just a little closer to being in the cages they are building as more and more freedoms are given away for the sake of security. Sound like a conspiracy theory? No one who isn't on their strings has ever been able to win the White House since JFK and never will. Take your pick. Romney or Obongo, it makes no difference. Their plan moves forward.
VofReason posted at 1:46 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
I think Mike actually makes a few good points here. Interestingly the subtle but identifiable change from most Americans are for some path to legal "residency" for our current illegal immigrants. From what has before been citizenship. That is key. I think pd makes the best point in all this. If they weren't sifening off so many entitlements, clogging emergency rooms, etc etc this wouldn't be as big of a problem.
Jesus Christo de Nogales posted at 3:16 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Obama is a true racist. Why does the US President hate the advancement of the standard of living for Mexico’s poor? Barrack Hussein Obama; how dare you deprive Mexico its young educated and motivated people? These illegal aliens now in the US are the only hope for Mexico and you want to keep them here in the US. They could start businesses, create jobs, and improve the standard of living for the poor people of Mexico. Yet you want to be selfish and deprive Mexico of these talented youth who could make life better for all the people of Mexico. SHAME ON YOU! Have you no compassion for the poor now living in Mexico? Gustavo Arellano, Steve Gallardo, Nicky Diaz Santillan, and La Raza need to insist that all these young educated and talented Mexicans be sent back to Mexico to help improve the standard of living for the poor Mexicans
mnjcpa posted at 3:22 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Rational, that's some brilliant stuff. Keen perspective - touche'.
Mike McClellan posted at 3:40 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
One clarification:
Rationalhuman writes, " 911 could not have happened if our immigration laws were being enforced."
According to all reports -- except the Truthers' various conspiracy theories -- the hijackers were all here legally. Here's a Fox News report on it -- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165210,00.html
bobunf posted at 4:26 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
As I've pointed out to Rational, Accuracy and Willie at least a dozen times: THERE IS NO LINE. There has never been a legal way for the vast majority of the illegal immigrants in our country to have entered legally. Continuing to act as those you don't know this is disingenuous. To put it more bluntly, it's just LYING.
To get permanent legal residence in the US from anywhere you have to be closely related to a citizen. Otherwise the quotes for the whole world are less than 370,000 per year. The detail is below. Please quit spreading ignorance.
Immediate relatives of U.S. citizens are spouses, minor children and parents (if the citizens are at least 21 years old) of U.S. citizens. Visas for immediate relatives of U.S. Citizens are not limited.
Family-sponsored preferences are admissions limited to about 226,000 per year worldwide and apply to children and siblings of U.S. citizens, and spouses and children of permanent residents with various complicated limitations in each category.
Employment-based preferences are limited to about 140,000 per year worldwide and apply to foreign nationals whose ongoing residence benefits the U.S., such as outstanding professors and researchers, multi-national managers and executives, certain physicians, religious workers for recognized religious denominations, and investors making a substantial investment (generally $1 million) in a venture that will create jobs for U.S. workers.
Refugees in limited numbers are also admitted at the rate of about 500 per year from Mexico.
bobunf posted at 4:34 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Rational continues to maintain that nothing is possible on immigration until the border is secure, which means NEVER. It is a lie to suggest they are only waiting for a secure border. They know full well that the border can never, ever be secure.
The East German border with West Germany was the most secure border ever, with 1.4 million anti-personnel mines (one every 3-1/2 feet on the average), 700 watchtowers, 1,000 bunkers, 47,000 troops (one every 95 feet on the average) with dogs, fences and walls multiple feet thick. All built with German quality engineering. The border zone was 3.1 miles deep and consumed about 2,700 sq mi - more than six per cent of all of East Germany; the equivalent of setting aside the whole state of Texas to guard our border with Mexico.
The East Germans destroyed whole villages. An inscription on one lone remaining structure: ‘Bardowiek: mentioned in historical records since 1292; illegally destroyed between 1977 and 1989 by the DDR regime.”
A special unit of the Stasi worked within the border patrol, posing as regular border guards to weed out potential defectors and sympathizers. One in ten officers and one in thirty enlisted men were recruited by the Stasi as informers. The Stasi spied on everybody, not just those near the border. It was a police state run with German efficiency and attention to every detail.
The East Germans killed 1,100 people trying to cross; injured and arrested tens of thousands more.
Still, a few hundred to a thousand people somehow managed to cross the border from East Germany into West Germany every year. It didn't come anywhere near "secure."
What part of "crazy " do you not understand?
Leon Ceniceros posted at 5:06 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Folks, notice how Mike McClellan and the Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Marxist and Democrat Commenters never mention...... THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES... or the.... US CODE OF LAW, TITLE 8, CHAPTER 12, SUB-CHAPTER 2, PART 8, SECTION 1325 "Improper Entry by Alien".............in their arguments.
Notice how the words....BORDER....AMERICANISM...PATRIOTISM...RULE OF LAW.....OLD GLORY...RED, WHITE and BLUE.............in their arguments.
Notice how the Sacrifices of.........AMERICA'S FALLEN HEROES....are never mentioned in their arguments.
Notice how Mike and his buddy-commenters never use the words...........ILLEGAL ALIENS.........in their arguments.
Notice how Mike and the others always.......BLAME GOVERNOR JAN BREWER, RUSSELL PEARCE, SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF PAUL BABEU FOR NOT WELCOMEING HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CITIZENS FROM MEXICO, GUATAMALA, HONDURAS, EL SALVADOR AND POINTS SOUTH (THOUSANDS OF WHO HAVE CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY WITH 40LB BACKPACKS FULL OF MARIJUANA, COCAIN, HEROIN AND METH)....WITH OPEN ARMS...............in their arguments.
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CITIZEN BE ON THE SIDE OF AN ILLEGAL ALIEN WHO COMES INTO ARIZONA WITH A BACKPACK FULL OF UNLAWFUL DRUGS, WHO TAKES JOBS FROM LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZENS, WHO USES STOLEN SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS AND FAKE CITIZENSHIP DOCUMENTS TO STEAL WELFARE MONEY, FOOD STAMPS, HOUSING MONEY, UTILITY MONEY, HEALTH CARE MONEY THAT WAS PAID FOR MY HARD-WORKING AMERICAN TAX-PAYERS..........WHY WOULD A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN FEEL THAT WE ....."OWE"....A CITIZEN OF A FOREIGN NATION........AMERICA'S TREASURE.....WHY WOULD THEY ????
samkat posted at 6:45 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Mike: Please clarify which jobs Americans will not do. I was just in Maine and the hotel cleaning staff were all American citizens as far as I could see. I am observing more Americans doing lawn care and tree trimming. I suspect we would see even more Americans doing those undesirable jobs if Obama would issue another executive order making E-Verify mandatory but as evidenced by his actions, he will not do that during his remaining months in office.
bobunf posted at 10:32 pm on Wed, Jun 27, 2012.
Leon, it shows an utter lack of intellectual substance to call people name, as in Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Marxist.
To put it more bluntly: Calling people name is just DUMB.
Also the amount of welfare money, food stamps, housing money, utility money, health care money collected by the undocumented is close to zero. Try to get a grip.
Arizona Willie posted at 7:34 am on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
bobunf ... just because the U.S. immigration law only admits 370,000 non-related immigrants per / year does not make it legal for anyone who wants to come to this country to ignore the law.
The Cardinals only sell so many tickets to their football games. Many people want to go who can't get a ticket.
Does that give them the right to crash the game and stand around or sit in seats where people didn't show up or left early?
After all, they want to go but the team won't sell them a ticket.
There is NO OBLIGATION on the part of the U.S. to take in everyone who wants to come. As a soverign country we are entitled to set our borders and police them if we so desire and to determine who is admitted to our country.
Just because 20 million hispanics WANT to come here doesn't give them the RIGHT to do so.
Rational Human posted at 7:38 am on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
That's right bob, never. And I'll tell you why. We are deadlocked on one issue. You want amnesty for every illegal alien invader and won't allow the border to be respected until full amnesty for all illegal invaders is secured. We demand that the border be respected. Respect would mean that all illegal invaders are deported. Until all invaders are deported and the border is secure we will not consider any immigration reform. So you are essentially correct. The word is never.
Bob, if you say that the illegal invaders impact on American social services is close to zero then you are either an idiot or the mother of all liars. I suspect the latter. Unemployment payments alone cost us in the billions. The entire tally has been estimated at over 300 billion per year in America. This number would go up significantly if changes in immigration policy lead to substantial increases in the number of low-skill immigrants entering the country and receiving services. The importation of poverty is killing our nation. Look at California, a state that has one of the highest GDP in the world, yet it's on the verge of bankruptcy. They don't dare blame the invaders, but everyone knows secretly what the problem is. Because our leadership here in AZ has been trying to eliminate this problem, we have a balanced budget and are prospering compared to many other states.
mnjcpa posted at 7:50 am on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
bobunf - you are seriously uninformed as to the cost to the American taxpayer for illegals in our system. In one provision of the tax code alone - earned income credit - it was over $4.2 BILLION last year alone. And Rational is completely right at the fiscal damage to California.
I get so sick of hearing about the `poor children, they couldn't help it, or all these poor people`. What about the American taxpayer? That's whose taking it in the shorts with these failed liberal policies.
November can't get here soon enough.
chatmandu002 posted at 10:18 am on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
Mike,
What is a sane and comprehensive immigration policy? The liberal/progressive/socialist/open border crowd has never really said what a "sane and comprehensive" immigration law entails. Give us a clue what you want and we will give you our side. But I am sure that anything the right side says will be called insane from your side and vice versa from the right.
I say enforce the laws already on the books, secure the border, enact the E-verify law and stop all government welfare/assistance payments to illegals. Then we can make some kind of accommodations for those still here illegally.
Mike McClellan posted at 10:41 am on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
Chat, I'd refer you to the paragraph in the column that says this:
"Maybe we’ll see a bill that would combine the border enforcement tactics used by Obama — the increased deportation, the bump in border agents, the use of drones to better patrol the border."
In other words, more border patrol agents, more deportation of border crossers, more use of drones to patrol more remote areas, an effective E-verify type employer check, continuance of deporting violent criminals (or imprisoning them or both).
But I have a question for you: The Guv and others say we can't handle the issue of existing illegal immigrants until we "secure" our border. What would a "secure" border look like?
Engaged Voter posted at 12:41 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
Dear bobunf,
"Also the amount of welfare money, food stamps, housing money, utility money, health care money collected by the undocumented is close to zero. Try to get a grip."
Most "Rational Humans" (lol) would think that the person claiming over TWELVE BILLION DOLLARS annually is "close to zero" is the one who needs to get a grip.
Either that, or you're a multi-billionaire and didn't tell us!
VofReason posted at 1:01 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
I think I have entered the bizzaro universe. I agree with Mike McC "In other words, more border patrol agents, more deportation of border crossers, more use of drones to patrol more remote areas, an effective E-verify type employer check, continuance of deporting violent criminals (or imprisoning them or both).", AZ Willie "There is NO OBLIGATION on the part of the U.S. to take in everyone who wants to come. As a soverign country we are entitled to set our borders and police them if we so desire and to determine who is admitted to our country." and Engaged Voter "Most "Rational Humans" (lol) would think that the person claiming over TWELVE BILLION DOLLARS annually is "close to zero" is the one who needs to get a grip."
VofReason posted at 1:04 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
For bobunf, please tell us all how a family of 4 or more lives on the money that can be made working illegally without speaking English? Let's call that generously $12 per hour or 25K per year? Housing, food, healthcare and of course paying their fair share of taxes for Education.
Engaged Voter posted at 1:47 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
"American citizens seem to shun the work only illegal immigrants will do."
Americans don't shun the work, they shun the illegal slave wages, not to mention that THEY will be taxed on their wages, unlike the illegals.
Pay a living wage, stop condoning the illegal invasion, and just WATCH Americans flock to these jobs.
Oh, and could you please stop referring to illegal alien invaders as "immigrants"?
It's dishonest and deceitful.
mnjcpa posted at 2:26 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
Hey Engaged - it's kind of cool that both conservatives & liberals (at least some) agree that serious immigration reform needs to happen. But don't get me started on that `fair wage` thing because that issue enrages me.
Small business owners will now face ANOTHER expensive regulation nightmare with Obamacare and we've now got the IRS bigger and more forceful. All the while, the Obama administration has all but highway road signs from Mexico to the US. There's no reason for an illegal to be fearful of coming here. Great. All the while public sector employees will retire wealthier than those that actually do things that are productive and useful.
In less than 4 years, we see the result of Hope & Change. And illegal immigration only pounds the economic cliff death nail quicker. I officially joined the Tea Party today.
Arizona Willie posted at 10:45 pm on Thu, Jun 28, 2012.
mnjcpa ... it is only your prejudiced opinion that government workers don't do things that are useful and productive.
If they all walked off the job for 6 months --- this country would crash and burn.
Government employees work just as hard as you do.
You might want to consult a psychiatrist about your jealousy of other people's pensions.
mnjcpa posted at 8:27 am on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
You're seriously deluded AZWillie if you think the government produces anything of value. The government in its wisdom, perceives a problem, they intervene to "solve" that problem. But instead of solving the initial problem, the intervention creates two or three further problems, which the government feels it must intervene to heal, and so on toward socialism. And you believe those government workers that do this `made up work` should be paid millions in pensions while businesses foot the bill and you find nothing wrong with that scenario? We think 180 degrees differently about risk and reward.
But wait a minute - you're the recipient of one of those big beefy unrealistic pension plans that have thrown cities and governments into bankruptcy. Jealous? Hardly. A better word for it is pathetic.
VofReason posted at 11:39 am on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
Strange how so many in the private sector struggle to retire even at 65. Conversly, people in the public sector retire before 60. Oh waite, meanwhile many cities are trimming basic services and teetering on bankrupcy. I am sure their is no correlation. Must be those greedy rich people unwilling to pay more in taxes.
mnjcpa posted at 2:33 pm on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
Right on VofReason.......I've met multiple people that have `retired` at 50 -55 years old from the federal and state government, teachers, GM, police unions - any type of union.
You don't need a finance degree to do a simple present value calculation to find out who the `true` 1% really are. Willie thinks I'm jealous - the feeling is more being appalled. And when they're asked to get on the same page as the private sector so we can balance a budget and not have these financial crisis you would think it's like asking for a kidney. It's what happened to Stockton and Wisconsin and is going to continue to happen until people wake up and understand that you - the taxpayer - are paying for these benefits.
Arizona Willie posted at 3:40 pm on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
VofReason ... i used to be that almost < everyone > had a decent retirement.
Pensions in the " private sector " were quite common ... almost universal.
But, since the Reagan administration companies have been shipping jobs overseas and cutting benefits to workers as fast as they can.
People are so upset about public employees getting pensions and benefits but why be mad at a common Joe who is just doing the best he can?
People talk like the public employees are evil.
The problem isn't with the public employees --- it's with the employers in the private sector who are exporting jobs and importing illegal labor in order to increase already great profits in order to justify bonuses for the top level executives.
Executive bonuses are going to be the undoing of capitalism.
Don't be mad at people who just were lucky enough to get a job with benefits and a pension --- that's just jealousy.
Be mad at the business schools that are teaching people that nothing counts but the bottom line and people are expendable.
Be mad at the CEO's and their cohorts who are getting multi-million dollar bonuses for cutting your benefits and pensions and sending jobs to China.
That public worker is just another Joe like you, trying to make the house payment and keep shoes on the kid.
Engaged Voter posted at 4:24 pm on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
Where were these fake patriots (tea party, et. al) when Reagan granted amnesty to millions of criminal invaders?
Why is this garbage okay when one party does it, but evil when another does?
Oh, and nice try on the smear, mnjcpa...but I'm not a conservative OR a liberal.
I have a functioning brain, and therefore have no desire to join either flock of sheep.
mnjcpa posted at 5:04 pm on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
No one has any resentment AZWillie and no one thinks the public employees are evil. It's just like in Wisconsin, Walker was only asking for a fraction of participation (12% and less) to help align the budget and you would have thought he was asking for their first born child. It's out of line, he's fixed it, and now gee whiz what's happened - the state is going bankrupt.
It's a deeper conversation about the outsourced jobs that you really don't understand and I see it daily with the businesses I work with. The difference between you and Engaged is AZWillie seems to be interested in knowing. Engaged should just change the third letter in his moniker to an R and it would be more befitting.
mnjcpa posted at 5:05 pm on Fri, Jun 29, 2012.
Excuse me, Wisconsin is NOT going bankrupt. Walker fixed the problem.
Mike McClellan posted at 10:01 am on Sat, Jun 30, 2012.
Wisconsin, of course, is not Arizona: Unions here don't have the clout they did in Wisconsin, and further, government workers in AZ have always been required to match the employers' pension contributions (in fact, for a year, they were required to put more in). Further, government workers do not receive free health care upon retirement. IF they choose to buy the state pension health plan, they pay anywhere from $600 (individual) to $1200 (for a family) a month.
And, finally, the state's largest plan -- the one that government workers and teachers pay into -- is the state's most solvent, close to what auditors believe a fully funded plan should be at. And there's only one reason that plan isn't fully funded -- the market crash of 2008.
What some would like us to believe -- and I'm not including mnjcpa in this group 00 is that Arizona's public employee plans and systems parallel Wisconsin's when in fact they're dramatically different.
k33j88 posted at 10:54 am on Sat, Jun 30, 2012.
Immigration reform?------Here's a novel concept----enforce the laws on the books, just like our beloved Sheriff Arpiao is doing. States rights are being upstaged by the marxist-in-chief. Signing statements, decrees, and executive privilege is being abused. What about the presidential appointments and salaries above congressional review? There is no accountability. These posts are held by those with socialist/communist agendas and proceed with no oversight. Time to deport and once again become a nation of rules and laws. The alternative is a growing cancer that will rot our core values.
mnjcpa posted at 12:35 pm on Sat, Jun 30, 2012.
You're right k33j88.....take a look at a great book by Thomas Woods 'Nullification'. States like Arizona, Texas, Alabama, and other GOP led states could look at other options when you get liberal liars in office like Obama.
BTW-I'm spending some time studying the taxes buried in Obamacare and the economic impact of that coupled with expiring Bush tax cuts. And don't let Obama tell you it's not a tax - because it is and then some. People have no idea what's about to hit them if this socialist gets reelected. I predicted in this column about 6 months ago that economic armeggedon day is approaching. Count on it with Obama.
mnjcpa posted at 9:12 am on Sun, Jul 1, 2012.
Willie - there's a big difference between 'the average Joe doing the best they can' and retiring in your early 50's with a multi-million dollar 'guaranteed' pension that your taxpayer neighbor pays for.
The outsourced jobs is a circular argument Willie. The jobs go where the costs are cheaper. Big businesses have to account to shareholders that expect earnings. You don't get earnings when you pay labor union type pensions.
In my own business I hire outsourced technical support for $30 an hour. If I hire those same workers & pay all of the associated benefits that Americans expect my costs quadruple. Big difference between me & an employee --- I've got 'risk' - something a public union worker would never understand.
BlueAZDog posted at 8:20 am on Tue, Oct 2, 2012.
Hey, Mike. I am shocked that we disagree on this subject. Well, not really. After all this issue is the only way your closest friends in the district schools can try to keep up ADMs.
Can you post your home address online so we can send a few of our poor employees - that we are paying substandard wages - to set up housekeeping in your home without your permission? Our company has bought off the political leaders with contributions to their campaigns and they have directed the police to not evict them. We figure that after we get a few of our friends in the media to run some heart wrenching stories about the "victim" children, some of your friends will make racist charges against you if you want to restore your property rights.
America is our Home. These people have trespassed into our home and illegally taken up residence. They need to be evicted as law breakers.
Cas Lee posted at 7:45 pm on Sun, Oct 28, 2012.
Hello, my fellow American voters!
I watched the Oct. 3rd, 11th, 16th, and 22nd debates.
1st Romney-Obama debate covered 7 topics: jobs; budget deficit/debt; social security/entitlements; federal gov’t economic regulation and role; healthcare; partisan gridlock.
2nd Romney-Obama debate covered 11 topics: college graduate jobs; gas prices; taxes; equal pay; Bush policies; Obama’s record; illegal immigrants; Libya; assault weapons; jobs; candidate misperceptions.
3rd Romney-Obama debate covered 10 topics: Libya; Syria; Egypt; U.S. world role; military spending; Israel; Iran; Afghanistan; China; U.S. national security threats.
Ryan-Biden debate covered 10 topics: Libya; Iran; economy; medicare/social security/entitlements; tax reform/spending/budget cuts; military policy; Afghanistan; Syria; abortion; negative campaign tactics.
Romney and Ryan won all 4 debates, although Obama improved some in the 2nd debate and Romney slightly took the win both in the 2nd and 3rd debates.
In the 3rd debate (unlike in prior debates), Obama reflected his weakness and disrespect by interrupting Romney a lot and using too many “one-line quips” to try to denigrate Romney.
Ryan won despite Biden’s consistently rude behavior during the debate (often interrupted Ryan, laughed when Ryan talked, pointed his finger). Biden’s tactics to evade issues/truth disrespected Americans interested in facts, figures, forecasts, and solutions for real people with real problems.
Romney and Ryan won with substance, directness, integrity, respect, clarity, facts, commitment, inspiration, credibility, and leadership.
As an INDEPENDENT female feminist (egalitarian) voter, I support the Romney/Ryan ticket.
Romney and Ryan, with their no-nonsense and methodic approach to solving America’s problems, are the best persons in terms of qualifications and character to lead our country and make life better for all Americans.
I am inspired by Romney/Ryan, and I hope that you are too!
Best regards,
Cas Lee