So here in the East Valley, most of our large school districts had overrides -- Chandler, Gilbert, Tempe High School District, and Higley -- on the Nov. 6 ballot.
Those overrides would either maintain the current property tax rate or slightly increase it, depending on the district. The purpose of those overrides? To maintain the current level of funding, in most cases. And what do those overrides provide? For most schools, the vast majority of the funding goes to salaries and health insurance for their teachers.
In all of those districts, the overrides failed, and failed by substantial numbers. Just as Proposition 204 did, the flawed sales tax initiative that would’ve maintained the funding the temporary sales tax provided to schools.
So, today, as schools face the next year, here’s the reality.
The Legislature has cut more than $200 million from school funding in the last four years, only backfilling that cut a little in the last session. Federal stimulus money has run out. And now, all of our East Valley districts will see yet another cut in their budgets due to the defeat of 204. And most of our districts will see a further cut as a result of the override defeats, Gilbert alone losing almost $17 million.
And we all already know where Arizona stands in funding education, right at the bottom, with our state having the dubious distinction of having the greatest cuts in the country over the last few years.
So much less money plus even more requirements equals bitterness. Teachers understand that we live in economic times where the idea of a raise is impossible for some. But many teachers haven’t seen a raise even in economically good times. Young teachers -- dedicated, outstanding “keepers” -- are demoralized, ready to move to different careers.
And salaries are far from the only reason. They’ve seen themselves portrayed as Public Enemy Number One by some, propagandists dedicated to indoctrinating our youth with some kind of “socialist agenda.” They’re told that they are lazy, that they get three months vacation each year, that their benefits and salaries are too large, that they do a lousy job in the classroom.
It’s a drumbeat that is constant and politically advantageous to the cynical. Add to that the “education experts,” many of whom have never been in the classroom, telling teachers what and how to teach. Or the captains of industry who run charter schools that have “assessments” used to weed out the undesirable students, the same captains of industry who then turn around and say that all public schools should be like theirs, a delusional idea.
Do I sound bitter? You bet. As a retired teacher, I look at my younger former colleages still hard at it, still dedicated to making a difference in their students’ lives, still demanding much from them and from themselves, and I see their frustration with the unknowing critics, the uncaring parents, the uninformed “experts.” And I worry that they‘ll leave the profession and leave their students in the lurch. In defeating the overrides and Prop 204, you told teachers that you don’t believe they’re doing the job they’ve been hired to do. It’s depressing, deflating, and debilitating.
We still have much to do in reforming education, but we’re making progress. We demand more of our teachers now, and of our students. The mediocre teachers are no longer as secure in their jobs. And we can do more to weed out the worst teachers and reward the best.
But Arizona and the East Valley in particular sent a clear message to teachers in defeating Prop 204 and the overrides. And you better believe the teachers heard that message loud and clear. You’ve made your education bed, voters, now lie in it, as uncomfortable as it might soon be.
BassAckwards posted at 8:21 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Well, we are a Republican Dominant state and if there is one thing that Republican voters have proven that they value most of all it sure as heck isn't education. And the dumber they get the dumber they want to be. Like pigs in youknowwhat. If small government, deregualtion and lack of public education were the key to a great society then Somalia would rule the world. A strong public education system is directly correlated to a strong economy, do some research before you vote. God help us.
ccmomof3 posted at 8:23 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
The truth about AZ education spending is that between 2001 and 2009 per pupil spending rose 47% before declining 5% between 2009 and 2011.
Why can't schools and teachers tighten their belts like the rest of us have during this great recession? Would you have rathered that the state cut more from ACCESS?
And Mike, why do you continue the lie about charter schools assessments? You were told the purpose of the assessment at BASIS and the support that those behind or ahead get based on that assessment. Did you call BASIS to find out the truth before you toss around your uninformed opinion? Have you ever set foot in a BASIS classroom?
downtownresident posted at 8:37 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
My daughter taught in Mesa and Gilbert many years ago, when the economy was healthy.
Even back then, she spent hundreds of dollars of her family's own money to buy classroom supplies.
The current trend of diverting public school funds to charter schools has only made the problem worse.
Arizona voters who voted against these over-rides must be very short sighted, very biased, or just plain ignorant of the value of a well rounded education.
Our legislature has proven its ignorant, backward view of education and has abandoned children of all but the richest as unworthy of a quality education.
It's a sad commentary on our "leaders".
delluser posted at 8:50 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
For FY2012, Arizona devoted 27.1% of its total spending to education, up from 26.5% in FY2009.[25]
Fiscal Year
Total Spending[26]
Education Spending[27]
Percent Education Spending
2009
$53.5 billion
$14.2 billion
26.5%
2010
$55.2 billion
$14.3 billion
25.9%
2011
$52.9 billion
$14.0 billion
26.4%
2012
$50.9 billion
$13.8 billion
27.1%
Read more: http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Arizona_state_budget#ixzz2CJ5a1yMh
delluser posted at 9:09 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Just because proposition 204 did not pass is no guarantee that we will have less money for education. The Legislature was forced to cut education because of a huge budget deficit; now that the state has a balanced the budget and has more revenue coming in this wait for the new budget to come out and see how much money there is for education. if you look at my post above you will see the percentage of money spent for education is higher now that it was in 2007.
graceaz317 posted at 9:16 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
You misunderstand the voting base. You do not throw good money after bad money.. Education is #1 to me. I think the vote was against the SCHOOL DISTRICTS and how they handle their finances. The money does NOT make it to the classrooms, it is absorbed by the bureaucracy and multiple layers of 'administrators" collecting salaries. The districts need to get their books in order (OPEN BOOKS) and start educating the children rather than lining their pockets and you will see the votes change.
JNelson posted at 9:21 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Rather than keep bleating that more money would improve results in education, why not look at what some other states do and look for honest reasons why their results per dollar spent are what they are. Here is a list of some higher state spenders per student, including the District of Columbia, their ranks in spending and their ranks in results:
1. DC: spends $19,698 per student, ranks #1 in spending, ranks 51 in results.
2. Rhode Island: spends $14,719 per student, ranks 7th in spending, ranks 32nd in results.
3. Hawaii: spends $12,399 per student, ranks 12th in spending, ranks 40th in results.
4. West Virginia: spends $10,821 per student, ranks 22nd in spending, ranks 44th in results.
5. Louisiana: spends $10,625 per student, ranks 23rd in spending, ranks 49th in results.
And here is a list of states which rank low in spending but much better in results:
1. South Dakota: spends $8,543 per student, ranks 43rd in spending but ranks 12th in results.
2. Colorado: spends $8,782 per student, ranks 41 in spending but ranks 13th in results.
3. Idaho: spends $7,118 per student, ranks 50th in spending but ranks 22nd in results.
4. Utah: spends $6,612 per student, ranks 51st in spending but ranks 23rd in results.
5. North Carolina: spends $8,518 per student, ranks 44th in spending but ranks 27th in results.
In comparison, Arizona spends $7.929 per student, ranks 48th in spending and ranks 43 in results.
(Data by GoLocalProv, 04-20-12)
So it is plain that there must be practical ways of spending money on education and also impractical ways. Shouldn't those who keep clamoring for more money every year find out what those lower spending states are doing RIGHT to produce better results and compare their policies to Arizona's? Also, wouldn't it be highly instructive to know why the big spending states so often get such POOR educational results? The obvious answer must be: spending isn't the ONLY, maybe not even the MOST important factor in this issue.
chuckles3 posted at 9:38 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
I guess the teachers should just quit their jobs and go on the dole. That will show us.
All those teachers we hear about who do it 'for the children' and not for the money will stick around and tough it out.
I am sure there are no qualified teachers looking for jobs. Why, just look at the low unemployment we are enjoying under the Obama regime.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 10:05 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH.......WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH.....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH......
SORRY MIKEY, BUT THE GOOD CITIZENS, YOU KNOW THE ONES WHO WORK FOR THEIR LIVING, NOT THE ONES WHO TAKE GOVERNMENT HAND-OUTS FOR THEIR LIVING.......HAVE SPOKEN.
IF THESE TAX-PAYERS HAVE HAD TO....TIGHTEN THEIR BELTS...MADE DO WITH LESS.......THEY WHY IN GAWD'S NAME CAN'T THEIR TAX-PAYER SUPPORTED SCHOOL DISTRICTS DO THE SAME.
HOW ABOUT OUR SO-CALLED "TEACHERS" GOING BACK TO ..."TEACHING" ....INSTEAD OF MENTORING.
I REMEMBER WHEN TEACHERS WERE KNOW FOR BEING "HARD" AS OPPOSED TO TEACHERS THESE DAYS BEING KNOWN FOR BEING "EASY".
TEACHERS BACK IN MY DAYS WOULD SPRING "SURPRISE TESTS" ON US TO SEE IF WE WERE LEARNING WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT WEEK OR IF WE NEEDED MORE HOMEWORK OR MORE INSTRUCTION. THERE WAS AT LEAST :30 MINUTES OF HOMEWORK PER SUBJECT. ON THE WEEKEND THERE WAS REQUIRED READING OR THE TEACHER WOULD TELL YOU TO READ THE NEXT CHAPTER SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHAT WE WOULD BE LEARNING THE NEXT WEEK.
NOW OUR SCHOOLS HAVE NO HOMEWORK.....PERIOD. IF THEY DO IT TAKES ALL OF A HOUR TO COMPLETE FOR ALL SUBJECTS AND THIS IS DONE AT THE LAST HOUR IN STUDY HALL WHICH HAS BECOME A "CLASS" INSTEAD OF "AFTER-SCHOOL" ACTIVITY IN THE SCHOOL LIBRARY.
TEACHERS HAVE 3 MONTHS OFF FOR SUMMER VACATION , 1 MONTH OFF FOR HOLIDAY PERIODS (EASTER, CHRISTMAS, THANKSGIVING AND 11 PAID FEDERAL/STATE HOLIDAYS), 2 WEEKS VACATION DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR AND 1 WEEKS PAID SICK TIME = PAID FOR 1 YEAR'S WORK BUT SHOW UP FOR WORK ONLY .........7 - 8 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR.
THE TAX-PAYERS THAT THE GUEST COLUMNIST WAS ...."RAGGING" ON....WORK ......10 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR....11 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR OR 12 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR.......THEY SEE TEACHERS DRESSED LIKE ...."RAP ARTISTS"...."GANG BANGERS" ...OR...WORSE.
MALE TEACHERS USED TO WEAR BUSINESS ATTIRE = SUIT OR SPORT COAT AND TROUSERS, SHIRT AND TIE = NOW LOOK AT OUR MALE TEACHERS.
FEMALE TEACHERS WORE BUSINESS ATTIRE TOO. SUITS OR DRESSES, NO CLEAVAGE SHOWING, MODEST COLORS AND LENGTH. THEY WORE MAKE-UP, HAIR AND NAILS GROOMED = NOW LOOK AT OUR FEMALE TEACHERS.
THAT IS HOW CHARTER SCHOOL TEACHERS DRESS TODAY. THAT IS WHY THEIR STUDENTS RESPECT THEM. THESE CHARTER SCHOOL TEACHERS LOOK LIKE......"TEACHERS"....NOT LIKE OVER-AGE "STUDENTS".
MIKEY....YOUR TEACHERS WANT SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET OVER-RIDES AND 1CENT TAX MONEY COMING IN = THEN THEY SHOULD WORK TOWARD EARNING BACK THE RESPECT THAT TEACHERS USED TO HAVE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES = THEY SHOULD DO IT THE....OLD FASHIONED WAY = EARN IT !!!
mesateacher posted at 10:28 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Stop the Republican beating: The R's are LESS than 50% of the voting base, and 204 failed by more than that...a lot of D's also voted NO.
School have tightened the belt so much that it's strangling schools. Go to any East Valley high school and see the overcrowded classrooms, the undisciplined kids, the lack of supplies, ancient technology. Talk to demoralized teachers. That's going to be the real test: when large numbers of teachers retire and there aren't enough to take their place. That's already happening in math now that four years are required to graduate. There are so many young people getting out while they can. For those of you who think it's a great gig with all the perks, vacation time, retirement and all that, keep in mind that businesses large and small have to do whatever it takes to recruit the kind of employees they need. Money, time off, working conditions matter. Why should teaching be any different? If schools don't make the job more attractive, by doing what ever it takes, you're going to have few takers, or the ones who will won't be the quality you want. East Valley people and the state in general have shot themselves in the foot. Our potential will never be realized until realize that education matters, and quality education isn't cheap.
chatmandu002 posted at 10:32 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
More money does not equate to better education. Teach to the basics and forget about all this touchy, feely PC stuff.
Arizona Willie posted at 11:38 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Yes, the voters spoke.Problem is that it is the students who get shafted and don't get a good education in Arizona ( unless they go to a private school ).Companies complain about a lack of qualified workers but that is their problem --- they can move and get some other city to give them tax breaks to do it, but the poorly educated workers don't have as many options as companies do.
geazer70 posted at 11:51 am on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
You have misinterpreted the election.....we have no complaint with the teachers.....my wife was one. The problem is the gross overload of administrators and the political indoctrination.
mesateacher posted at 12:22 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
"More money does not equate to better education." NOR DOES LESS MONEY.
"The problem is the... political indoctrination." I WISH THOSE OF YOU WHO KEEP SAYING THIS WOULD SHOW ME WHO, WHERE, WHEN THIS HAPPENS. Name names, places, dates. Prove it. I've never seen a teacher doing this...at the colleges, yes, but I've never seen it in a public school in Arizona...not ever.
VofReason posted at 1:24 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
I agree with Mike McC on 2 points for sure: teachers should be paid well and should not have to reach into their own pockets for supplies. That said, if the avg student in AZ gets $9000 in combined funding and there are conservatively 28 kids in an elementary school class, how in the world can they not pay the teacher a decent wage and buy school supplies out of $252,000 for the school year. This sounds like a spending problem, not a funding problem. My sense by the vote is that the others agree.
VofReason posted at 1:26 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
I will also submit here that the comments here about Republicans don't care about education. That because they don't have kids and many that are in the public schools? Comments like this lead the reader to dismiss all that comes after.
Bluepoet posted at 1:29 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
School is, by definition, indoctrination. So is religion, by the way.
It is the price that must be paid, to live in a civilised society. The only question, of concern, is, how much indoctrination is necessary, and how much teaching (educating) can be conducted, within the bounds of that societal need.
In my view, the problem, with public education, is two-fold. First, there is too much weight being given to test scores, as a means to measure quality. Second, there's not enough funding to make even the test scores improve, much less attract good teachers, or even decent facilities to house teachers and students (speaking of AZ, here).
I don't really have the answers to these problems, but I do have concerns about the privatizing of schools, and my taxes. I think it's more indoctrination, to go in that direction, not less...and, it's also heading in the direction of class distinction, at the expense of diversity and "all men created equal"...
Was prop 204 going to go to the schools? I don't really know, but it sure seems that most of Arizonans didn't think so...I don't know if that was because we were lied to, or if it just appealed to our sense of frustration at government, in general. I tend to think it failed because there's a lot more money out there, backing private schools as a means to make profit, and not to actually educate our kids.
Privatization is a trend that is reaching into every aspect of our lives, these days. Prisons, schools, service industries, medical institutions, fire departments, pseudo-military security. As if the answer to any problem, is to leave it to the profit margin, and the bottom line.
BeecherToolAndDie posted at 1:56 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
CUSD, in particular, is run by perhaps the most fiscally irresponsible BOD in the valley. They spend money like a drunken sailor. Hundreds of thousands for iPhone apps so kids and parents can download the lunch menu. Over $5 Million to renovate bathrooms. Free breakfast and lunch for anyone when school is not even is session. The list goes on and on. If the BOD were a public corporation, there would be a shareholder derivative suit to toss these bums out.
Cerulean posted at 3:16 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
JNelson – Your argument holds no water! Your top three DC, Rhode Island and Hawaii are also three of the most expensive places to live. The cost of living in Hawaii is much higher than in Gilbert Arizona.
Your comparisons are (inappropriate term!).
AZJenjen posted at 3:54 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Election year after election year, we have the same level of fearmongering from the crowd on the left. They use children and teachers as pawns in their little game of money laundering and employ every scare tactic ever dreamed up by the collectve (?) minds of Saul Alinski and David Axelrod. Problem is - THEY HAVE NO PROOF that us giving them more money every year (as we have in the past - over and over and over again) has improved anything in education - quite the contrary, things have gotten worse. Even the most basic common sense tells you that you STOP throwing money after something that is that broken. The problem is, NOBODY in government - whether the lowest paid city clerk or the highest paid POTUS is interested in "fixing" anything. They've belied up and latched on to the government teat and they'll be damned if they let go.
WesternConnections posted at 4:26 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
As for Gilbert Public Schools, chickens are coming home to roost as people learn how badly GPS has treated teachers, students and parents in recent years. In addition to teachers trying to tell the board how the GPS administration uses retaliation as a weapon, an administrator recently came forward, telling just how bad things were at Highland Junior High School under former principal Brian Yee. http://westernconnections.com/liznoticeofclaim.html
In addition, parents and taxpayers in general recognized that sitting board members who voted for the superintendent's recommendation to close Gilbert Junior High School without warning were vulnerable to being "unelected." That was an entirely unforced error by Superintendent Dave Allison; he blamed it on the $100,000 strategic plan written by a consultant. The board finally decided he didn't earn his performance bonus after that fiasco.
As a result of all this, the 2012 GPS Override was voted down. Governing Board President EJ Anderson and appointed board member Blake Sacha were "unelected." Beginning in January 2013, two of the seats on the board will be occupied by Julie Smith and Daryl Colvin, whose campaigns were based on bringing transparency and accountability to Gilbert Public Schools.
samkat posted at 6:00 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
ccmom: Can you prove that Mike is making false statements about charter school assessments? Can you provide an accounting of where they spend our tax payer money? The legislature cannot because so many of them have a piece of the pie that they don't want the average taxpayer to know what they are doing with our money.
PS: Why can't the charter schools tighten their belts as well? Further why should they be allowed to determine who can and who cannot attend their schools since they are supposed to be part of the public school system?
pd posted at 6:12 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
@graceaz -- I am a conservative republican, but you are completely, totally wrong in your assertions that the money is "all going to administration". The books are completely open and accessible. Go to the state auditor's website and look (azauditor.gov). All districts are audited annually and the most recent audit shows that Gilbert's administrative costs (district and school level) are 7.8 % of the total budget (Mesa is 7.2%). If you go to the school board website you'll see even more detail. Every single dollar can be traced. I knoiw of no other area of government that is so transparent. It irritates me when the democrats misrepresent the data (or ignore it), but it irritates me more when my follow Republicans do. Don't believe me? Go to the websites I've cited . . . You're listening to people who will find any excuse whatsover to vote against any tax increase, accurate or not.
ccmomof3 posted at 7:30 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Mike,
You repeated your mischaracterization of the POST enrollment assessment that BASIS gives, but what about the PRE-enrollment assesment and interview that Chandler Unified gives prior to acceptance into its magnet schools. Do you rail against this active weeding out of students? (BTW, CUSD's Hamilton Prep is 85% Asian\White with 0 blacks and 0 native americans)
For the CUSD web site...
"Arizona College Preparatory (formerly Hamilton Prep) is open to all interested students and their families. Students interested in enrolling need to complete the enrollment application (application is available for download below), take a math and reading placement examination, be interviewed by a member of Arizona College Preparatory's entrance committee, and sign a contract agreeing to abide by the principles and guidelines of Arizona College Preparatory as determined by the Advisory Board. If there are more qualified applicants than space available, students will be placed on a waiting list and contacted when openings become available."
Rich posted at 9:10 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Mike,
Let's get real. You field, your expertise. What happened in literature in the 20th century? What was new? What moved it? For the first half it was dominated by the previous century. Novels with formulas, archaic grammar. New? Real reality, honest expression challenging society and morality: THE STORY OF O, LOLITA, ULYSSES. How much of that did you teach? Then reality, not a structured story, the French nouveau roman. Nobel laureate Claude Simon, Marguerite Duras, Alain Robbe-Grillet. Then the beats, You focus on 19th century form, on some publishing company OKing it? And then focusing on the Liberals, did any course you taught even mention Gore Vidal? Or H.L. Mencken? What you are espousing is a century behind what is being created, and over a century of what has been created. When people who valued language bought the books, we had Byron, Gautier, now we have James Patterson. And that, is your fault, you bear the blame and I really find it horribly Fuqed up that I have to pay you for it.
Ty Meeop posted at 9:24 pm on Thu, Nov 15, 2012.
Mike's essay is spot on. The morale and retention of public school teachers cannot be sustained in this environment. Many of the young teachers fresh out of college and in debt cannot support themselves on salaries in the low 30s when combined with 5 years of pay freezes, 5 year of coaching pay cuts, classroom overcrowding, and always new hoops to jump through that have little to do with actually teaching. It's a recipe for burn-out. It might be fun to pretend that physics, calculus, chemistry, and special ed. teachers are lined up around the block just looking for a chance to make $33,000 a year, but it's a myth. I love listening to everybody say that the money needs to be going to the classroom. Great rhetoric, but exactly who's going to make that happen? The state legislature? No. The board? The district adminstration? Not likely.
sockratties posted at 10:44 am on Fri, Nov 16, 2012.
Mike... The job of the K-12 school system is to turn out a student who is prepared for college, if that's their preference, or ready for an entry level job if they and their family so opt. Both choices are acceptable because society needs laborers, the “trades,” cab drivers and retail workers as well as scientists and engineers.
I met a senior mess sergeant in the Air Force. He thought the reason for a military was to create mess halls so he could cook for the troops. He cared about the troops and wanted to do the best job possible with the best mess halls money could buy. He would have served prime rib everyday if he had the budget.
Just like the sergeant, Mike, you miss the point, and so do the teachers. Some teachers excel and others not so much. The difference is not the tax rate. Achievers and underachievers (both students and teachers) are present in the same environments. Admittedly there are school districts with great environmental and social challenges. East Valley school challenges are not a lack of funds. They come from a lack of family support, political will and from confusing pedantic goals with true objectives.
Compared with schools fifty years ago, today's schools are spacious, well equipped; almost luxurious. Those were the schools that prepared you for today. Now they have computers, software, overhead projectors, whiteboards on all walls and online libraries. Who could want more? East Valley schools.
Business and government are like living things in that they consume all they are given and grow when over nourished. They become fatter and lethargic while craving more. School systems are no different than living entities in that they are self serving and always want more than they are given. They shouldn't be starved but a tour of East Valley schools readily reveals that they lack no essentials. And I'm not an uninformed critic.
Maybe it's time to quit wanting the next model of the next new thing or reams of printouts of every lesson so the little dears don't have to write too much. We don't need palatial campuses to teach the 3 Rs. We have all the resources and technology required to teach science, technology, engineering and math (STEM).
You said “I see their frustration with the unknowing critics, the uncaring parents, the uninformed “experts.” And I worry that they‘ll leave the profession and leave their students in the lurch. In defeating the overrides and Prop 204, you told teachers that you don’t believe they’re doing the job they’ve been hired to do. It’s depressing, deflating, and debilitating.” How else, Mike, will the message get across? Even you dismiss it!
Well, Mike, those “unknowing critics, uncaring parents, uninformed 'experts',” are paying the bills and they've decided it's too high for the product they're receiving. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to know when you've bought a lemon.
JNelson posted at 12:33 pm on Fri, Nov 16, 2012.
Cerulean......I'm afraid you don't see the forest for the trees here. True, DC and Hawaii are very expensive places in which to live, but ask yourself this: Why is there such a disparate result in educational stats between DC and Utah? DC spends $19,698 per year per student and educationally ranks 51st in the nation. Utah spends $6,612 per student and ranks 23rd. Why doesn't DC rank at least close to Utah despite spending 3 times the money? And given the amount spent, why isn't it #1? Besides, does it really cost 3 times as much to live in Hawaii as it does in Utah?
Look also at Rhode Island vs Massachusetts. They are located practically on top of each other. RI spends $14,719 per student; Mass spends $14,540. But Mass ranks #1 in educational results and RI only 32nd. Why the vast difference in results for nearly equal spending?
Do you think there could be something to learn about HOW to spend the educational dollar rather than just throwing more and more money into the system, especially into ones which seem to be under-performing?
VofReason posted at 12:37 pm on Fri, Nov 16, 2012.
Argue about the details, but don't miss my calculation above. Each class in an elementary school means a quarter of a million in funding. If they paid an experienced teacher 70K (salary and benefits) you still have 175K to buy supplies, have a roof etc etc. How do they fritter this away and come back asking for more year after year. In the real world, you would be out of business fast.
Teacher65 posted at 7:49 pm on Fri, Nov 16, 2012.
175k. Sounds great to me. But...the teacher is not the only thing that the students get for that 175k. It totally discounts a myriad of things that impact that child's education. There is a library, cafeteria, building upkeep, buses, a nurse, textbooks, technology, custodians, security, cafeteria workers, an auto shop with lifts and tools, a welding shop, wood shop, sports equipment (for programs that the public wants every bit as bad as the students do),. Totally ignores all of the support staff and equipment needed to run the schools like: mechanics shop, information systems to keep technology running (an entire dept that did not even exist 20 years ago and must come out of the same budget as 20 yrs ago), plumbers, painters, electricians, carpenters, floor crew, outreach for homeless students(yes, we do care about educating every child no matter the circumstance or disability)
Haven't even mentioned NCLB that was a gift from the party of small govt that added regulation which has become an unfunded mandate. It is expensive and hasn't delivered what it promised.
I could go on and on. Bottom line...175 k is a gross oversimplification. What about the special needs class that has 1 teacher and 3 instructional assisstants to attend to 10 students. (Yes, we deliver a quality free publication to ALL students) Sort of blows away the 175k prophecy. We still believe that art, p.e., music, and library are meaningful - all of which 175k ignores. Also, totally ignore sped students who never have a 28 to 1 ration.
John Q. Public uses public education as a punching bag. It is easy. Everybody thinks they know about education because 30 years ago they were in a classroom. Having been a patient doesn't make me qualified to be a doctor. Or to make a truly qualified assessment of the doctors knowledge and skills. RIDICULOUS!
Rich posted at 10:11 pm on Fri, Nov 16, 2012.
Mike, you go off defending your way of looking, okay, you have a bunch of coin, they say you don't have to work. So read this: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/24066
and review it. I think the author is miles beyond Fitzgerald. This portrays how you pupils thought, and the learned to do it through society. Spend a buck Mike and use it. Literature is after all an influential art. You spent your life at that, you were paid to use it to influence. Are you anywhere near Dylan? show us,
Mikey Mac posted at 8:57 am on Sat, Nov 17, 2012.
Schools in Arizona will always be among the poorer performers. Take a state whose population has very little change from year to year. The chances are a teacher could be teaching three generation of the same families in their teaching career. The teacher teaches children, their cousins,mothers and fathers, and aunts and uncles. The key word is stability. If a student stars to slip, parents are told and there is peer pressure to do better. Just telling a student their older brother did better, makes the student think if he did it then I can do it also.
The point is Arizona, being an enormous growth state, with many failing families coming her for a new start and finding out it is not the land of milk and honey. Broken families result and it affects Education. I recently went to my 50th Reunion and had a picture taken with 15 people attending who started Kindergarten together. I doubt very few in Arizona the last 40 or so years can say that's possible here.
Of course another huge problem is the thousands of illegal aliens coming across the border who are naturally holding back class learning because of language problems. I have often said it is time to pick out the bright and promising students and teach them using our top teachers. This will never happen because God forbid we retain Mike for another year of second grade and damage his feelings. Education hasn't failed it is just broken. Lastly I challenge ANYONE to go where they work tonight and find 10% waste of money. I would bet 100% will be able to see 10% waste where they work, okay, maybe not Mike or his fellow teachers. I listened to the head of the National Education Association on TV asked five times what his organization would cut back on to help the country and he diverted his answer five times. That told me all I need to know about the TEACHER'S UNION.
Cerulean posted at 7:31 pm on Sat, Nov 17, 2012.
J - I can see the forest and the trees.
A better comparison might be between Tucson and the Metro Valley. Tucson does a better job if you believe usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/arizona/rankingsusnews
Here is an example for an idea that doesn't take a lot of money -
http://youtu.be/Ul9c-4dX4Hk
BlueAZDog posted at 8:38 am on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
MIke, if nothing else, you are consistent. Now we would like for you to be accurate. Accuracy means putting the numbers together in a way that does not mislead.
In the beginning of today's biased, victim mentality whine, you state that the state legislature "cut" over $200 million from the state education budget over the last four years AND that the federal stimulus is now beginning to run out. To put those two statements together is that manner is intentionally misleading.
While the state legislature was forced to reduce funding slightly (according to your own figures, less than 5% of state appropriations over the four years or 1.2% per year) from education statewide, increased funding from the federal stimulus appropriations and "special projects" funds over the same time frame was more than double the state reductions.
Remember that this 5% decrease in education funding (which comprised about 50% of total spending at the beginning of the time period you cherry picked) from the state occurred when the amount of tax revenues coming into the state general fund decreased by 37%. In fact, the legislature created debt that today's students will have to pay off (mortgaged paid off buildings including the buildings at the State Capitol) by more than $4,000,000,000 in order to keep education basically safe from the draconian cuts that other state agencies suffered.
As a result of the disproportionate lower reduction to education, K-12 funding as a percentage of the total tax revenues available actually increased to 72.18% of total tax revenues available. The very least you and your friends in the public school system could do is say THANK YOU!! Instead you whine like kindergarteners on the first day away from their enabling mamas.
In addition, local taxes to schools that comprise an overwhelming percentage of total property taxes, also increased. All of this occurred at a time where a vast majority of the school districts was actually seeing a reduction in the student enrollment for the first time in Arizona history.
The biggest problem with money available to educate students has been clearly identified by the Auditor General. The fact is that the superintendents and local administration offices- rubber stamped by their friends in school boards - reduced the percentage of revenues to the classroom to the lowest level ever!
Your problem is the fact that the voters are beginning to get information from sources other than the misleading, self-serving press releases from those same school administrators. With the facts available to them, the voters are just beginning to look at the K-12 system with opened eyes. This trend will continue to grow, so if you and your friends to not make major reforms on their own on their terms, they will be forced to do so by the newly informed voters.
Now federal stimulus funding is running out AND STATE FUNDING IS BEGINNING TO INCREASE. How is that a reduction in total revenues - let me help you, it isn't.
Good luck, Mike. The future will be even more challenging for you as the paradigm continues to evolve.
Mike McClellan posted at 11:00 am on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Would you like to provide the sources of your statistics so we can read about them, BlueAZdog? You make many claims here -- back them up.
BlueAZDog posted at 1:03 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Let the dance begin, Mike. You already know most of what I am about to write because you have be brought kicking and screaming to these facts before over many months. I give you credit for consistency and for trying to make people think that your misleading propaganda is presented without your knowing how skewed it is. Oh well, here we go.
As a preliminary foundation we have to recognize that due to the reluctance and foot-dragging of the education leaders, acquiring timely numbers is impossible to get, so the last reliable numbers are the FY2011 reports. FY2012 is still listed as estimates. The numbers from the schools are adjusted for more than a year after the fact as a matter of course and are unreliable.
So, with that in mind, lets choose a five year period from 2006 to 2010 – a time period that begins with the school industry’s best friend as governor and the economy growing at a great clip and the time period ends with the school industry’s worst enemies (in their propaganda, if not in fact) the Republicans at an all-time high in the legislature and with a Republican governor on the ninth floor.
Using the same source that democrats, republicans and your lobbyists use to determine funding for K-12, we will go to the Joint Legislative Budget Committee (JLBC) report entitled “Historical General Fund Revenue Collections.” From FY2006 and ending in FY2010, the Total Tax Revenues to the State General Fund, the K-12 All Funding from the State General Fund and the percentage of state tax revenues appropriated to K-12 were as follows:
2006 - $8,890,091,000//4,286,562,500; 48.21%
2010 - $6,066,423.600 //4,411,699,900// 72.27% (sorry, I misstated that as 72.18%)
Now for the K-12 TOTAL Revenues, the K-12 TOTAL revenues have continued to increase in spite of the fact that in 2011, the state actually did reduce the K-12 funding to $4,089,390,900. However, the schools did not have a reduced TOTAL revenue stream because from FY2006 to FY2011 local property taxes revenues increased by $500 million and Federal Funds increased from $1.14 Billion to $1.55 Billion for a TOTAL Revenue stream from the taxpayers that increased by nearly One Billion Dollars over the time period. It is also instructive to note that the total student population has remained stagnant over that period of time and, since charter, private and home schooling is increasing, the student population in the district schools continues to decline even with the growth of total revenues.
The JLBC also reported that the state had revenue enhancements in Fiscal Years 2008, 2009 and2010, (otherwise known as mortgaging state buildings that had already been paid off free and clear – debt that our students will have to pay off when they start working) to the tune of $4,131,735,000
Last item for this truth-telling session, the Auditor General of the State of Arizona has reported that the percentage of revenues for public schools that is being allocated to the classrooms has declined every year this decade and is now at the lowest level in the history of the state. If we want better student achievement scores, we must demand that the administrators restore the percentage of funding to the classroom to at least the national average. If we meet the average, it would result in additional $700,000,000 in classroom resources that could be used to improve teacher salaries and provide the latest instructional tools available.
Time to stop the dance. Time to stop blaming the legislature and start cleaning up your house with the adequate resources provided.
ACE posted at 1:32 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, it seems like you are the one that has to back up your line. I have researched the district school funding numbers and they have NOT had "deep cuts" nor are they facing "yet another cut in their budgets" nor do they "have so much less money."
The statement about the teacher salaries is accurate in a few schools, but not across the board, and for those districts where the statement is accurate, the major responsibility lays at the feet of the administrators. Some of them have increased administrative office staff by nearly 200% in the years covered above. The teachers should start picketing the district offices demanding an increase in the percentage of revenues to the classroom instead of being used as pawns by the very people who have a history of shorting them on resources.
Mike McClellan posted at 3:00 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
No dancing, Blue, but plenty of spinning. As you note, as a percentage of revenues, the portion provided to education actually increased, from 26.6% in fiscal 2009 to 27.1% in fiscal 2012, as the JLBC reports.
However, in real money, the legislature cut the K-12 budget by 183.2 million dollars during that time, as the JLBC reports.
Here's the source --
http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Arizona_state_budget
And, of course, much of that funding was due to the one-cent sales tax that most Republican legislators opposed. Without that sale tax revenue, the $800 million budget surplus would've been a $400 million budget deficit.
Now, as to the federal stimulus money for education:
Yes, stimulus money filled holes in the budget cuts. That was its purpose, in part. But despite that fill, per pupil funding continued to drop.
Source:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/27/20110227arizona-public-school-funding-recession.html
Now, that money's slowly gone away, the tax revenue ends in June -- which means for the 2013 fiscal year, there's a huge funding hole in K-12. And some Republican legislators, including Senate President Andy Biggs and Appropriations Chair John Kavanaugh, have already cautioned that they are hesitant to increase K-12 funding significantly.
And with many districts losing on continuation of overrides, that money either ends in June or in June of the following year.
So, with the opposition to both 204 and the overrides by some of the most powerful Republican politicians in the state, we'll see what happens to K-12 funding.
Finally, as to ACE: I agree with you about administrators. Too often some seem more interested in keeping their fiefdoms. But what districts have increased office staff by 200%?
ACE posted at 3:42 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, Blue is right about the fact that we should only figure tax revenues. Counting things like mortgaging property into the process is misleading and no one with any sense uses those funds to determine if their household or business is in the black or not. If a company goes out and borrows a million dollars because it has lost 500k in the last year, it may show some cash increase, but the bottom lins is they are on their way to bankruptcy.
The fact is that the schools have consistently had more money annually at their disposal over the last decade and have managed to act like spoiled brats by telling everyone that the mean legislature has "decimated" their operations with "draconian" cuts.
In fact I read financial reports compiled by my school finance office that showed millions in revenue for soft capitol, of which they expended $0.00 while the schools tell teachers and parents alike that the school has no money for classroom instructional materials and pressure both of these groups to spend hundreds of dollars due to the "deficits" caused by the legislature. It is a combination of legal? larceny and bully threats. Unacceptable!
For you to defend this type of activity shows who you are.
BlueAZDog posted at 5:47 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, I don't know if you are that unknowledgable or that smug that you believe that you can intentionally fabricate false information and no one will be smart enough to catch you.
On the stimulus money, it did not just fill the holes in the budget, it was an explosion of new money that that more than doubled any small negative adjustments while your friends in the education industry kept up the lies about "decimating cuts that were going to force them to lay off teachers and cut sports and social programs. What a load of hockey pucks.
On the sales tax referral to the ballot. The fact is that SCR1001 was passed with 9 of the 16 votes in the Senate coming from Republicans (more than 1/2 the minimum necessary) and 22 of the 34 votes in the House coming from Republicans (more than 2/3 of the minimum necessary) In fact, in the House not only Republicans provide 2/3 of the necessary votes, a larger percentage of Republicans voted for the referral than the percentage of Democrats.
Of course, it doesn't play well with your victim mentality and false charges that the Republicans hate education if you tell the truth. Let me remind you that the four billion in mortgaged buildings to protect the educatoin industry was passed overehelmingly by Republicans, also. Without that, education WOULD have received huge cuts. Just say THANKS!
As to your source, I use the non-partisan government departments responsible for providing the official record (including the reports prepared and published by your district school finance offices) while you use a left wing "non-think tank" to get your skewed "proof." "This reminds me of the Jim Mora Miller Lite commercial.
"Sunshinereview, did you say Sunshinereview?"
You are obviously a product of an industry that produces an inferior product at an exorbitant price that would have been insolvent decades ago in any other venue. The truth is just beginning to emerge, so go to the sites that show how to prepare for doomsday. The district schools are about to implode under the force of their own false info.
ACE posted at 6:45 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, the problem you folks have is that you do not have total control of information like in the past. The internet search engines allow anyone to find sources instead of just the wealthy or media types. Now that the playing field is more level, the tide is turning.
PS; Looks like Blue got you with your hands in the cookie jar. As our second president, John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things." Well, now the facts are easier to access.
Mike McClellan posted at 6:49 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
You're spin is good but incomplete, the definition of spin: Yep, 9 Republicans votes came from the Senate and 22 from the House. All that did was refer it to the ballot.
But when the campaign began . . . State Treasurer Dean Martin, Pam Gorman, Russell Pearce, Ron Gould, John Kavanaugh, Thayer Verschoor, Al Melvin, Eddie Farnsworth, Andy Biggs and other top Republicans led the charge against it. Along with heavy hitters in Republican circles like Tom Jenney,
And don't forget the Goldwater Institute's fierce opposition to it, which commissioned a study to show the effects, the study claiming it would cost AZ 14,000 jobs. Instead, unemployment in our state's decreased from 2010 to now. They were joined by the Arizona Free Enterprise Club and Americans for Prosperity in forecasting dire results. Those two groups, along with the Goldwater Institute, clearly are Republican-leaning groups.
So don't make the silly claim that Republicans didn't oppose the sales tax. They were in the forefront of the opposition. Including Senators McCain and Kyl.
Second, the so-called "source" that you denigrate actually is a report of the JLBC's budget report, the same one you've used here. Maybe you should've read the "source" instead of just looking at the url.
Finally, again, your spin makes people's heads hurt. Yes, selling the buildings helped fund education . . . and other areas as well. But the budget for K-12 was still cut by $183 million over three years, as reported by the JLBC.
And yes, the stimulus poured in plenty of money, most of which did go to education, but not all to K-12, since community colleges and universities got their share, too.
And ACE, maybe read the report about soft capital more carefully. What's happened is this: the state, because of cuts in education, has given districts the discretion to use soft capital for simple operating expenses, which many districts have.
But since you've brought that up, the Republican-controlled legislature's created another unfunded mandate for schools:
Kids are to take the Common Core Assessments on computers. How many schools have enough computers to meet that requirement? Hardly any at the high school level. Any funding for new computers? Nope. Soft capital's been cut, too, over the last few years.
BlueAZDog posted at 6:55 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, your irrational conclusion about the statement voters were making when they voted against Prop 204 is obviously coming entirely from your self proclaimed bitterness.
"In defeating the overrides and Prop 204, you told teachers that you don’t believe they’re doing the job they’ve been hired to do." That is just not true. We don't believe that the ADMINISTRATORS, the DISTRICT STAFF, and the AEA LEADERSHIP are doing the job they've been hired to do. Most of us believe that the teachers, the property owners, the parents and the students are all victims in this messed up situation.
It is time to clean out the "leadership" and allow the four groups of victims listed above who have the most at stake in the education process to succeed.
Mike McClellan posted at 7:48 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Interesting quote you attribute to me . . . except it's not a quote from me.
Good try.
I don't disagree that we need to look at administrative costs, and district staff (start with professional development departments, for example). But the AEA? Please. That union has little influence beyond the moribund Democratic caucus in the leg.
Unions in general here have little effect on policy.
If we really want to control some costs, why don't we have a single, state-wide insurance program for teachers instead of the current model, where each district or charter has its own? I have to believe that having a pool as large as the public education staffs in one insurance pool wouldn't lower costs.
And we need to, as you suggest, review district staffs -- as mentioned above here, staff development often seems to be superfluous or simply a waste of teachers' time and districts' resources.
And these elementary districts apart from high school ones but that feed into the high schools -- why can't the legislature require unification of geographically the same districts? Less bureaucracy and better uniformity in what's taught.
We do have some common ground, Blue, and maybe that's where folks should start from.
BlueAZDog posted at 8:26 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
Mike, try reading your own stuff. Look at the next to the last sentence in the third paragraph from the bottom of your article and you will find your own words published for posterity. I quoted you correctly, you just forgot what you wrote. In fact, to make sure I quoted you correctly, I copied and pasted the sentence from the article.
As to your second point, is there a law against setting up such system? I believe that former Republican Approps Chair Tom Boone has set something similar in the Deer Valley/Paradise Valley/Peoria, etc. districts.
As to your third point, that would take away local control. A favorite complaint of the ASBA, AEA, etc. anytime the legislature tries to require anything in the education industry - except more money.
If we are on the same side, you have to write articles clearly identifying the fact that the diverting of funds from the classroom is the biggest cause for teachers and students failing to reach the goal of better student achievement scores.
BlueAZDog posted at 8:34 pm on Sun, Nov 18, 2012.
In addition, Tom Jenney and the Goldwater Institute are as Republican as ACORN and MECHA are Democrat. I know Tom Jenney and Tom Patterson and both of them are clear that they are Libertarians that only work with the Republicans because it is closer to their position than the socialist/green dominated Democrat Party.
I never said that all Republicans supported the temp sales tax, but a majority of them did, which is more than you can say about the Democrats in the House did. Governor Brewer, Sreaker Tobin, President Pierce, etc. The bottom line is it did not even get on the ballot without a majority of the support coming from Republicans.
Mike McClellan posted at 7:16 am on Mon, Nov 19, 2012.
Well, Blue, let me wipe the egg off my face . . .
And while I'm doing that, let me stop laughing, too, about your assertion that Goldwater and Tom Jenney are "are as Republican as ACORN and MECHA are Democrat."
Exactly.
JNelson posted at 11:14 am on Mon, Nov 19, 2012.
Cerulean......No, I think you do NOT see the forest for the trees since you made no comment whatever on the vast discrepancy in spending and educational results between Hawaii and Utah, a spending difference of about 3 to 1 by Hawaii although the costs of living are surely far from that, and though about equal spending exists between Mass and Rhode Island, their results are quite different. Why is that?
Katydid52 posted at 6:36 pm on Mon, Nov 19, 2012.
There is "zero" relationship between money spent and educational outcome. There are states that spend more than twice what we spend and still get little for it.
Google "Kansas City Public Schools tax increase 1985" if you want a giant example of throwing money at a problem that is way more complicated than just funding.
BlueAZDog posted at 8:07 am on Tue, Nov 20, 2012.
I appreciate that you admitted you had not read your own material, but you do not respond to the fact that your other complaints are already available, if a district wants to avail themselves of them. Also, when is the article going to appear that excoriates the district school administrators that are diverting funds from the classroom and, by their actions, preventing raises to teachers?? You always blame the legislature for the teachers not getting raises- in spite of the fact that any reductions were more than compensated for by much larger funding from the feds - AND the local actions of the school boards under direction from the administration is the real culprit for determining how much money is spent for that purpose..
Mike McClellan posted at 9:32 am on Tue, Nov 20, 2012.
Oh, no, BlueAZ, don't paint with the broadbrush. But I'm looking for some specifics as to these "diverted" funds? For example, I've criticized districts for both the "professional growth" departments and those districts, like Mesa, that have a "career ladder" department. Both could be dismantled or shrunk considerably, at least given my understanding of them.
And I've criticized in the past districts that, like Mesa, create "flak catcher" positions, "area superintendents" whose job seems to be keeping trouble from getting to the big boys.
But you know as well as I that comparatively speaking, Arizona's administrative costs are lower than the national average.
Some guy above claimed that administrators increased their office staff by 200%, but didn't respond when asked where that happened.
So, BlueAZ, give us some examples of where you'd cut.
Rich posted at 11:28 pm on Tue, Nov 20, 2012.
Mike,
You're a wonder at spinning factoids, and trying to answer questions with challenges.
If caught at it, it's a 'non-answer' 'what would you do?" "give us some examples'. these are silly, I got caught answers.
If you lay out a position, you defend it point by point, this is called dialectic, and people learn through it. When it becomes obvious that you cherry picked, fudged a bit, then it's a challenge to 'prove it'. This is called sophistry, it is used to win arguments and hide the truth. And I would suggest to you that if you are going to employ it, you study it a little more and get good enough at it to some of the people, some of the time.
remo303 posted at 3:17 am on Wed, Nov 28, 2012.
Schools are for teaching, learning and the process of developing critical thought skills so students can be intelligent, informed citizens.
Not for football, band, extracurricular shiny-things nor anything else except teaching and learning.
Get real. Get your priorities straight. There is ample money for the job of education. The Districts simply choose to offer anything but.