Forgiveness is a discipline that transcends cultures and bridges many divides when words fail. Without it, the world would look like the chaotic mess that is Afghanistan these days, where an alleged Quran burning by the U.S. military supposedly inspired deadly riots and the murder of U.S. troops.
The more the Obama administration apologizes for the burning, the more it fuels the sweltering rage within those who would much rather watch the world burn than to live in peace. Ahem. So, why are we apologizing, yet again? Because we have an administration that would rather bow to Saudi kings or to political pressure than stand up for the men and women who stand in harm’s way.
What was the Obama administration thinking when it sent senior Pentagon official Peter Lavoy to apologize to a group of D.C. area Muslims during their prayer services at ADAMS Center in Sterling, Virginia on February 24, 2012? Reports say Lavoy apologized numerous times during his brief speech at the Adams Center, which, incidentally, is one of the largest mosques in America.
According to a February 25 Fox News report, Lavoy told the group, the books were burned “unknowingly and improperly” and said our military “neglected, out of ignorance, long-established, correct procedures for handling religious materials.”
The Defense Department procedures he was most likely referring to instructs our military to handle the Quran using “clean gloves” that must be “put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling,” using two hands “at all times...in manner signaling respect and reverence,” and handling it “as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.”
Lavoy reminded listeners that a string of Obama administration apologies to the Muslim world had already been lifted up by way of ISAF Commander General John Allen and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta as well as a personal letter written by President Obama and personally delivered to Afghan President Hamid Karzai via U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker.
Lavoy reiterated “that apologies are never enough and do not erase this incident,” and then really stepped in it when he promised “We will hold people appropriately accountable.”
Sounds good. But, there are two sides to every story. Promising that people will be held “appropriately accountable” without full disclosure as to the circumstances surrounding the incident is disingenuous considering that the people to be held “accountable” may very well be scapegoats. I’ll admit I’m a bit defensive, because I have family members who faithfully serve.
Here’s the skinny:
CBS News reported February 21, 2012 that an anonymous “military official with knowledge of the incident” said it appeared the Qurans and “other Islamic readings were being used to fuel extremism, and that detainees at Parwan Detention Facility were writing on the documents to exchange extremist messages.”
Representative Allen West (R-FL) who was appointed to both the House Armed Services Committee and Emerging Threats and Capabilities Subcommittee concurs with the CBS report. In his February 26, 2012 newsletter, West said the Parwan detainees “used the Koran [Quran] to write jihadist messages.”
Based on this information, the detainees, and not the military, are to blame for the incident because they defiled their own sacred books, hence violating both Islamic cultural practices and the Parwan Detention facility contraband rules.
According to the same CBS report, Islamic teaching mandates that defiled Qurans be “burned or buried” meaning there is much ado about nothing because the military followed Islamic teaching as well as their own procedures for disposal of contraband.
I just put my boots on because it’s getting quite deep around here; shoveling manure is dirty business. As I see it, the only apology needed is to the U.S. military, which once again did their duty and are being blamed for it.
Copyright 2012 Susan Stamper Brown. Susan’s weekly column is nationally syndicated exclusively by Cagle Cartoons newspaper syndicate. Email Susan at writestamper@gmail.com or her website at susanstamperbrown.com.
Rich posted at 6:47 pm on Tue, Feb 28, 2012.
""Where they burn books, so too will they in the end burn human beings." Heine.
There is no possible crime as bad as burning a book. It is one of the only ways you can damage future generations. The problem with apologies, is that they have become insincere, every second consumer rep you reach in New Delhi says, 'I'm sorry' when you are not even sure he knows the language well enough to know for what.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:08 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.
Susan and [to a much lesser extent] Rich,
Both of you, as well as the military and most of the rest of us, apply too much Western logic and reasoning to Eastern culture. Even Kipling understood that "East is east, and West is west, and never the twain shall meet" until perhaps both come to know, understand and mutually appreciate and respect eachother's cultural [including religious] uniquenesses as the characters in his epic poem began to do!
Hopefully the US will engage with Hamud Karzai in a thorough and in depth investigation into this matter, one which does not stop short of that "in depth" understanding. Sure, the Taliban took advantage of our actions. When in Rome, doing something other than precisely what the Romans would do, something which opens one up to criticism, is always a mistake. We needed to have understood what Karzai would have done with this problem well before we struck that match.
Instead it appears that we took a short cut here, one which left us open to criticism. And this is not the first time we have done so. Rather it's our most blatant incident with Korans.
Now rather than our second guessing herein what we should have done, let's see what comes out of an investigation. Were there actions taken by us without proper and full consultation with those fully familiar with Afghani and Muslim culture? Susan infers that we did consult. But clearly somehow we left ourselves open to criticism. Are we taking action to cover up prior careless actions? Susan appears to have joined in with the crowd that wants to justify our actions without really examining them beyond the cursory look taken by those who put the match to those books.
I have read that during the pilgramage to Mecca, Muslims who enter Saudi Arabia with copies of the Kuran not printed in Saudi Arabia have their copies seized and destroyed by shredding, burning, and burying, replacing those destroyed with a locally printed copy free of charge. This makes the Saudis the largest destroyer of Korans! Clearly what is customary in Saudi Arabia may not be customary in Afghanistan or Rome! But coming to understand that destruction was required, did we even do what the Saudis do? Clearly not! [Not shreded, not burried after a thorough and complete burning.] And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that in Saudi Arabia local clergy oversee, supervise and even take part in these actions!
Yesterday's Steve Benson's [Arizona Republic] cartoon showed Uncle Sam, hat in hand, saying words to the effect that he is appologizing for those morons who think we have nothing to appologize for. Even in Western cultures, when offense is taken, whether intended or not, the guest always must appologize and ask for forgiveness from the host. That we have done. Now we keed to make amends, [Christians call this "repentance"] coming to understand in depth both why offense was taken and what we should have done to avoid this situation. Clearly we have not done enough of that before.
I suggest we all re-read Kipling's poem. It's profound!
Rich,
I know you appreciate this problem much better than does Susan. She has not had the richness of experience either of us have had. But her piece is a heck of a lot better than most. Somehow Steve Benson has gained much insight, too. Steve and I share a common cultural heritage. We were both raised as Mormons.
Remember back to that nut case in Florida who wanted to burn Korans? Steve did a cartoon showing that man holding a smoldering match which had just been blown out by the figure standing next to him, the Prince of Peace, who Himself was not of any Western Culture! After Constantine, Christian cutlture was taken hostage by the West and has never been the same since!
Susan,
"Onward Christian Soldiers, marching [to a non-Christ like theme] as before." We've all got 1700 years of wandering in a culturally corrupt waste land to overcome. It would appear that you have made considerable progress, more that most others have. But as a first step appologizing is necessary. [And no one should assume other than that all cultures have corrpution problems.]
As Rich calls for, now its onto the second steps, the ones showing [both to others and more importantly to ourselves] that we are sincere about making amends for our mistakes!
Susan, in this regard, pleaae keep us all informed of our progress!
Rational Human posted at 7:30 am on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.
Burning a Koran is one of the only ways you can damage future generations? What drugs are you on Rich? And Psychobabble rants about this being our most blatant incident? The Obamanation does not deserve any respect from the American military because we have an administration that would rather bow to Saudi kings or to political pressure than stand up for the men and women who stand in harm’s way.
VofReason posted at 12:41 pm on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.
Yes, maybe we can get them to wear felt gloves when they lets say burn our flag or cut the throat of one of our reporters. In this way they will work to not violate our cultural mores.
Leon Ceniceros posted at 2:41 pm on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.
The Korans were "defiled" by the inmates scribling messages in them. A "defiled" Koran must be burned....by Koranic Law and US Military Guidelines.
4 Americans have been killed by the Afghan military that they are training.
Enough already.........PULL EVERY AMERICAN MILITARY PERSON OUT (LEAVE HILLARY'S STATE DEPT PEOPLE....LOL). IF THE AFGHANS DON'T WANT WOMEN IN GOVERNMENT OR IN SCHOOLS.....THEIR COUNTRY...THEIR CALL.
IF THE AFGHANS HAVE BEEN FOUND TO HAVE INSTIGATED ANY...ANY TERRORIST ATTACKS ON AMERICANS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD THEM PICK THE HOME TOWN (OR CITY) WHERE THE TERRORIST CAME FROM AND BOMB IT BACK INTO THE STONE AGE. 2 TERRORIST = 2 TOWNS OR CITIES....3 TERRORISTS = 3 TOWNS OR CITIES....ETC.
PRETTY SOON THE AFGHAN PEOPLE WILL GET THE MESSAGE...NO TERRORISM = NO BOMBING.........EVERY ONE IS HAPPY...AMERICA ISN'T SPENDING 1 BILLION DOLLARS A DAY AND OUR TROOPS ARE SAFE AND SOUND AT HOME...........PROBLEM SOLVED ! ! !
Dale Whiting posted at 5:29 pm on Wed, Feb 29, 2012.
Yes Leon,
Where we are too stupid to know how to model our behavior as our host would have us do, we must get out.
Masterrogue666 posted at 6:45 am on Thu, Mar 1, 2012.
Perhaps we should check with President Hamid Karzai if writing in the Quran, by ANYONE, is acceptable to their beliefs. If not, and the Qurans where dealt with by the proper guidelines, NO APOLOGY should be given. Further, I would advise those responsible that further such behavior would cause the REMOVAL of such a privilege. In other words, write in the Quran again, and you do get access to the Quran EVER AGAIN, while in custody.
The instant a detainee wrote in a Quran, it ceased being a holy book, and became a product of terrorism.
Dale Whiting posted at 7:15 am on Thu, Mar 1, 2012.
Mr. 666 [sign of the beast!]
I did not realize you had converted to Islam and overnight become an Imam! Otherwise your conclusion is without merit.
I suggesed we withhold our judgement until we learned what you appear to have learned [but have not] from the internet. I pointed out that the group responsible for the most destructions of copies of the Koran is the Saudi Government. And it would appear that they follow guidelines far more stringent than the ones we may have tried, but failed, to follow.
So have you become that Islamic authority which you appear to infer you are? I think not! Allah ak bar! God is great! But we here in the US are not so great! And for that, if we desire to remain in Rome [Afghanistan] we sure better should do much more than merely appologize!
P.S. I've finally found your last ravings from a week ago last Tuesday and have given you a response, a response which at best you only vaguely solicited! Next time you wish a response, clearly ask for one. Otherwise know that your rantings are ravings will not be answered, only pittied!
TeaPartyPatriot posted at 9:00 am on Thu, Mar 1, 2012.
I wonder what Afghan Muslims do with their old, unused, defiled Korans. It is, after all, just a book. Yes, until we can conform to a dumb as rocks people, we should turn the country back to the Taliban so that the terrorists will again have a place where they can freely practice their religion of peace. Yes Mr. Dale (Psychobabble), we should do much more than apologize. Do you think beheading a hundred American soldiers will satisfy your need and their need for more? lol Allah ak bar! God is great! But we here in the US are not so great! Right, Change your name to Psychobabble so everyone will recognize you better.
Rich posted at 11:01 am on Thu, Mar 1, 2012.
Dale,
I am rather aware of what Islam is, and it's not one thing, it's quite a few. Saying 'Moslem' is like saying 'Christian' it covers several widely varying theologies, philosophies and spiritual thought. A son in law and that side of my family is Moslem, and I have a rather extensive understanding of it.
Overall the offense is one of dignity, not of fact. Look at it through the American flag. A flag that has become frayed, deeply soiled, needs to be destroyed in a dignified manner, usually by burning it. However, it can also be burned as a protest. Same act, done differently. A Koran is the same. You are trying to make the simple, complex, abstruse, when it is not. Burning a flag, or a 'soiled' Koran is much the same thing. The act itself is in question only as to the why, when and how, not just the act itself.
Dale Whiting posted at 4:04 pm on Fri, Mar 2, 2012.
Rich,
There you go again, applying Western traditions, thinking and customs to non-Western culture and concepts. Yes, it is a bit presumptuous to apply to all Muslims the customs and traditions of a few. And it is possible that we did what other Muslims in Afghanistan would have done. But given the announcement from General Allen that an investigation is underway and that those responsible will be identified and made to account from their acts, I believe I am closer to the mark on what we should have done than are you.
In short, your flag burning example is wowfully inadequate and way off the mark, so far off that I desided not to mention it. That you did mention it shows me how little you know about Islam. I truely thought you knew more!
If you will not re-think these matters, at the very least, re-read Kipling!
Dale Whiting posted at 4:32 pm on Fri, Mar 2, 2012.
Dear TeaPartyPatsy,
You make the same mistake most uninformed people do. Where someone points out the mistakes made by one side in a dispute, you think that they do not see or worse yet, support the other side's positions totally.
No, I do not believe that Muslims are justified in murdering Americans. Nor to I condone 19 mostly Saudi citizens who crashed aircraft on 9-11. Nor do I condone Palestinians who terrorize Israelis.
Where it up to me, I'd get rid of that "Two State" solution, mandate one state where all citizens were in possession of equal rights, permit those Palestinians and their off spring who fled Israel back in 1948 to return, and allow them to live in "One Nation under God, Indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All." For starters, I'd take Netanyahu and his counterpart out behind the shed and give them both one heck of a good spanking.
Jimmy Carter had it right. "Palestine, Peace not Apartheid!" Those Israelis who would not stay in Palestine could immigrate to Long Island. At least there would not be much cultural shock!
And I'm tired of the pandering we have to do to keep US Jews from taking sides in our local politics. Iran deserves nuclear power just as much as does Israel. We need to work with Moscow to supervise Iran's fuel enrichement programs, build nuclear power generating stations in Iran, build them domestic crude oil refining capacity and help them become energy independent. And where we would work with Moscow on these programs, Moscow would start working with us on Syria.
Isaiah had it right, too. We need to beat our swords into plow shears and our spears into pruning hooks and study war no more! That ain't rocket science, it's Judao/Christian/Muslim doctrine!
Remember, the topic here is not who did wrong, but who owes whom an apology!
Masterrogue666 posted at 9:39 pm on Fri, Mar 2, 2012.
Gee, Dale, I find it interesting how you claim that Rich, I, and et al, "apply too much Western logic", yet you take it one step further with your infantile claims that due to my avatar's name, I represent "The sign of the Beast". Talk about religious intolerance! What's the word I'm thinking of? I think the work "hypocrite" works well.
There is no way you could know what religion or religions I may believe in, or if I believe in any at all. Perhaps I do worship the "Lord of Lies". Or maybe I'm a devotee of Kabbalistic Judaism! Am I not allowed the freedom of my own religion without you labeling me? Seems to me you are FORCING YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS upon me when you name me thus, WITHOUT ANY PROOF. What's that called? False witness comes to mind.
Or perhaps I am Muslim. What's ironic is that if you did a little checking about the Quran and 666, you may actual find this:
http://www.666soon.com/666_the_holy_number_of_islam.htm
Or perhaps I'm being too judgemental because you suffer from Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia.
But I digress. As I stated (WITH MY FIRST SENTENCE): "Perhaps we should check with President Hamid Karzai if writing in the Quran, by ANYONE, is acceptable to their beliefs." Gee, wouldn't that answer come from someone with "Eastern" thought processes? My second sentence basically stated that if we followed the "Eastern" way of thinking in the disposal of the Qurans, then where's the harm?
If indeed said prisoners defiled the Quran, why give them the opportunity to do so again, let alone continue to allow a breach in security? One would think they'd appreciate us making sure another Quran wasn't defiled in such a way, again.
By the way, regarding the other articles, I did answer you, with much more expediency than when you took over a week to answer me.
[beam]
Masterrogue666 posted at 9:46 pm on Fri, Mar 2, 2012.
By the way, I recall telling you the proper way to spell one of your favorite terms is "neoconservative" vs "neo-conservative".
So, I might as well help you with "pitied" vs "pittied". After all, I know how you want to impress people with your intellect. Then again, perhaps it was a typo.
[wink]
davidflucier posted at 5:50 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
Once again, Ms. Brown comes up with more Tea Party blather...blah, blah, blah...nothing but innuendo, misinformation, emotional outbursts, and the same old Christian fundamentalism vs. Islam fundamentalism talking points.
What a waste!
Masterrogue666 posted at 7:39 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
davidflucier: Tell me, where is this "misinformation"? I'm curious....
Masterrogue666 posted at 7:47 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
Dale wrote: "And I'm tired of the pandering we have to do to keep US Jews from taking sides in our local politics." -- But Dale, don't you support that ILLEGAL ALIENS should be allowed a voice in US Politics?
If that's the case, why should US CITIZENS (that happen to be Jews) not be allowed their voice? Your statement scares me!
Dale Whiting posted at 8:09 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
davidflucier:
You'd better answer Mr. 666 soon. He gets impatient with those who ignor him or dismiss what he says without responding.
Mr. 666,
Not only do I not know what if any faith you practice, I have no idea who you are. But I do have a pretty good idea what you are and it ain't pretty!
You appear to profess some form of Christianity. For you seem to know the most about that. Where so, your intense criticism of other Christians like me, who look after minorities of our own faith, especially those who might be here illegally, your criticism appears to be hipocracy. Rather than doing something constructive and Christ like about the motivations that bring people here illegally, you prefer to meet them at the border with guns ablazing!
Rather than honoring those of different, and non-Christian faiths by trying to honor their practices when living amongst them and being sensitive to occasional, inadvertant mistakes, apologizing for these indiscretions, you apply your values to the situation and condemn them for being hipocrits when we are in Rome and they, not us, are the Romans!
I know enough about you to not wish to know any more! But like Will Rogers, I have never met a man I did not like. I like you. But I like you more as a model of what I would like not to become than as a friend.
Now since this piece is on whether or not the President owes the Military an Apology, I repeat. General Allen is working [apparently with Karzai] on investigating what we did wrong. Apparently we failed to fully incinerate those pages. That was wrong. Those who failed to fully incinerate, as well as those with overall supervisory responsibility will get disciplined. But the President did owe the apology he gave to Karzai and the Afghanis and as commander in chief, he must see that General Allen's investigatory work is fully completed.
If when in Rome, we will not do as the Romans would have us do, we need to leave! Rome ain't ours to run! And at $1 million per troop per year, you'd think we'd have been smart enough to have known that!
mnjcpa posted at 11:29 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
Have to tell you Dale that particularly your first post, I learned a lot about culture and the problems we have in the middle east.
I will take you to task every time on monetary/economic policy because I have a solid understanding of tax and capital markets. You don't get ahead by punishing businesses or achievers and that's what's happened over time through liberal social referendums. It's the tone that Obama promotes. But I have to say your comments here on foreign policy are very good and informative.
Masterrogue666 posted at 4:55 pm on Sat, Mar 3, 2012.
Dale: You continue to go out of your way attempting to insult me, when if was you that stated "Go for it". I took you at your word, and now it seems that all you are capable of doing is to snivel and whine that I held you to task. I'm comfortable with letting those that read here decide things for themself.
However, PER YOUR REQUEST, I asked a DIRECT QUESTION (posted at 7:47 am on Sat, Mar 3, 2012) regarding a statement you made. Your last comment did everything else EXCEPT answer that direct question. I find that interesting.
It's clear you don't know much about me, otherwise you would never had written this:
"Rather than honoring those of different, and non-Christian faiths by trying to honor their practices when living amongst them and being sensitive to occasional, inadvertant mistakes, apologizing for these indiscretions, you apply your values to the situation and condemn them for being hipocrits when we are in Rome and they, not us, are the Romans." -- In college, I made it a point to become a "Goodwill Ambassador" to foreign students. They wanted to learn about America, and I wanted to learn about their country. My foreign friends in college ran the gamut: Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan, Siam, Vietnam, Hungary, China, and other countries that I can't recall right now. I'm still in touch with most of them via facebook.
My best "American" friend in college came from an eclectic family. His mother (Caucasian) adopted all her children. My friend was Korean/Caucasian. His sister (whom I dated for awhile) was Vietnamese/African American (SHE used the word Black), the twins (the only one's blood related) were Korean/Caucasian. The youngest was Japanese/Caucasian. My most serious girlfriend was from Hong Kong. However there's HUGE DIFFERENCE between those people, and ILLEGAL ALIENS.
In fact, when I first came to Arizona, I actually was on YOUR SIDE of the ILLEGAL ALIEN debate. Over the years, I've seen first hand the detrimental affect they've had on America, and I have since changed my mind. I believe Jesus stated that we should follow both God's laws, and man's laws, did he not?
When you claim that I have "intense criticism of other Christians like me", then you seem to be missing my point. You are the one claiming to be Christian, and state that I should be doing the same. However, you seem to be blind to the fact that some of your actions go against said teachings. All I'm doing is reminding you, directly, what you see to "miss".