In the latest labor report, 368,000 more Americans have stopped looking for work, artificially skewing the unemployment stats down. The recent report of 8.1 percent tricks the brain of the casual thinker. Try thinking about this: 12.5 million of your fellow Americans are out of work (Labor Dept.). Perhaps you are one of them or your child. See: www.money.cnn.com (2012 August jobs report).
Our East Valley was hit hard, we all know that. This is our reality. We hear often about those who move back with family and others who don’t have that option, who exchange the mortgage for rent payments in a “rough” neighborhood. There are those who scramble to move into new careers; or those who toss papers, before dawn, for a few extra dollars. I know of a young mother leaving her children in their beds to do so.
There are those who travel out of state for work; their new home is two rooms in a so-so hotel. The lucky ones bring family with them. One family of three is making do in south L.A. where dad found work after searching for more than a year, having been laid off from a six-figure job.
Unemployment stole his beautiful Queen Creek home, which he and his wife purchased through sacrifice. The loss trashed his perfect credit rating and self-esteem; his suffering is unbearable for this mother to watch.
I’ve watched nieces and nephews give up family homes to move where maybe, just maybe, work can be found. I see them reinvent themselves, which isn’t all bad, except the strife creates additional problems such as health and family contention.
Have you noticed? When something goes wrong, lots of things go wrong. It’s insidious, but as real as earthquake after-shocks, requiring super human exertion to keep going.
The upside is it can pull families back together, those who remember how to play. A full column could be dedicated to recovery and the psychology encompassed within the rebirth of the mythological Phoenix bird, the bird which rises out of the ashes, beautiful and vital.
But, for some, this kind of talk right now incites more sorrow and perhaps rage.
What can help is an offensive response as footballers know. This is truth; this is what I’ve watched as well as lived. Defense can leave one haggard and confused, where offense is the wiser strategy to claim your future.
Lots of words are wasted on who gets the blame for this economy, the increase in gas and food prices, and on and on. As my children often say, “It is what it is.” And, folks, that’s our reality. We are here.
What we do with this has endless consequences. If you are not registered to vote, do so. And, remind your adult children. If your parents or neighbors need rides to the polls, pick them up or help them order an absentee ballot. And if you are believers in God, continue prayer.
We must stay engaged in our political struggle. It does matter. It’s not complicated. We have two clear choices in this election: Socialism or enhanced personal power in a free market system; expanded dependency on government or growth of the job market and personal freedoms. We can be proactive or surrender to diminishment from suppression. Claim your future.
Linda Turley-Hansen is a syndicated columnist and former Phoenix TV anchor. Contact her at turleyhansen@gmail.com.
Mike McClellan posted at 8:33 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
You know, Ms. Hansen's column had no real controversy (or substance, for that matter) until this final paragraph:
"We have two clear choices in this election: Socialism or enhanced personal power in a free market system; expanded dependency on government or growth of the job market and personal freedoms. We can be proactive or surrender to diminishment from suppression."
And at that point, she goes into Full Turley-Hansen, reducing something complicated into caricature, her simplistic thinking on full display.
If she is alluding to Obamacare as an example of what she calls "socialism," first, it isn't and second, if you agree with her, then you must agree that Mitt Romney governed as a socialist in Mass., since his Romneycare in that state is almost identical to Obamacare.
Which, of course, gives the lie to the Full Turley-Hansen.
mrconservative posted at 9:43 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mike, Socialism doesn't work. It never has, it never will. And Obamacare is only the beginning.
As for Romney's "Romneycare" is Massachusetts, well, I can can only say that it was wrong. I think Romney's learned from it.
If you think Obamacare was bad, just wait. If Obama is re-elected, he'll make America hell on earth. It's too scary to comprehend.
mnjcpa posted at 9:52 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Linda's right Mike. There's numerous examples during the Obama term to bring someone to that conclusion. She's dead on right that our free market system; expanded dependency on government or growth of the job market and personal freedoms have been destroyed under Obama.
Romney has the experience to turn this train wreck around. My fear is a second term for the radical in WH today, and it will be too late.
Cincinnatus posted at 10:38 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Apparently, either Linda doesn't know what socialism is or the President doesn't. Because if Obama is a socialist he's a pretty bad one.When the President could have pushed for nationalizing the banks in the 2008 crash he did not nor did he nationalize the auto industry nor did he push for a single-payer health plan. Nor has he nationalized the health-care industry. Or the oil industry during the BP oil spill. In fact, he has not advocated for or passed any legislation that has nationalized anything. Nor has he taken away anyone's guns or plotted with the UN to invade the US. But don't let brain-dead accusations get in the way of facts.
The auto and financial industries are in fact extremely profitable now because of the steps both he and the Bush Administration took to rescue them from their own poor management and risk-taking. On the obverse side Bill Clinton, who the right-wing now praises for his economic flexibility signed, with the avid support of the Republicans, the legislation that repealed Glass-Steagall provisions - a prelude to the worst economic calamity since the Great Depression.
It doesn't appear that the people throwing "socialism" around as a scary word understand in the least what it means. Like most modern states in the 21st century the United States has a "mixed economy" in which both the government and private enterprise direct and allocate resources. The free-market economy does not exist in some pristine state divorced from the legal, social, political and popular culture such that if it were only left alone everything would hum along prettily. Never has and never will.
And mnjcpa if you don't like dependency than try getting to work on the roads the government built or get your food from someplace that doesn't follow the FDA rules on meat or dairy inspection or stop relying on the police and fireman or our Armed Forces to protect you and yours and forget collecting Social Security or Medicare and give back the mortgage interest tax you've deducted on your house and, in fact, give back that tax break Obama gave you when he entered office. Because you're pretty dependent on all of that. (Or is it just poor folks we're talking about?)
Obama is not the radical, people. You are. You all sound like the 50's John Birch Society.
I
DavidNichols posted at 11:29 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mrs. Turley-Hansen;
This "Personal Economic Misery" began out of a Botched Evil Plan called "Attrition".
January 2008 = The start of the E-verify Law, the I.C.E. Deportation/Incarceration Programs, and "The Great Recession", the "Foreclosure Crisis", the New Ballooning National Deficit", and "Skyrocketed Food Costs."
Fact is: For every good, hard working Immigrant Deported, Incarcerated or Starved away America has lost over Four times as many American jobs!
Fact: The Hard Labor Immigrants gladly did for America was the very Foundation of our Strong Economy, and the twenty-five year period prior to the Largely Latterday Saint "Anti-Immigrant Rant" was the "Most Prosperous period in Total U.S. History"!
"America is great because it is good, when it ceases to be good, it ceases to be great."
Alex De Tocqueville
This Great Nation of Immigrants was built on Far Better Principles, and Values than Evil "Attrition", or ripping apart good Christian Families, and Deporting Parents away from their Legal Citizen Children, or Family members!
This is our I.C.E.'d Economy Mrs. Turley-Hansen.
"Attrition", and I.C.E. "Put the Car in the Ditch".
America will stay on the same "Wrong Racist Road" until we once again "Choose The Right."
We are Far Better than "Attrition".
Are we even "Human" Sister Turely-Hansen?
To: Good, and Brotherhood, from Sea to shinig Sea.
mnjcpa posted at 11:57 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cincinnutus - If you haven’t noticed, the economy is IMPLODING. It’s unbelievable to me that Americans are as oblivious to this fact or what it means to them when it happens. But why would they know? When you have a feckless media that’s nothing more than an Obama superpac, it’s not discussed as it should be.
The auto and financial industries are profitable by Obama’s impact? Hardly. The GM bailout was nothing more than buying out unrealistic union pensions putting people in retirement at 50 that couldn’t be funded further. All while stiffing the bondholders that invested in GM. Yeah, that was a real success story. Each Volt produced now COSTS GM $49,000. Double success!
The financial sector? He’s made the banks bigger, more powerful, and squeezed community banks out. Take a look at Goldman Sach’s profits the last four years and the money they made off of policies promoted by the Obama administration. Wall Street elected him in 2008 – read `Bought & Paid For`.
That oads & bridges argument is just comical. We all PAID FOR those roads and bridges, my mortgage deduction was phased out ten years ago, and if you understood taxes better than you think you do you would understand that it wasn’t a tax break Obama gave me. It was the rate in place, and had been in place, for several years.
What people are afraid of is our laughable foreign policy which has opened the path to terrorism and larger government which has exploded under Obama. He makes Carter look like a success story. So while America’s conditions aren’t within a tight framework of the description of `socialism`, this readers perception of the events of the day are very different than yours.
Another four years of Obama, left unfettered to do anything he wants? I shudder to think.
Cincinnatus posted at 12:49 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Again, facts are wrong.
The economy is not imploding. While it is not growing as fast as it would in the absence of the incredible wreckage left by Republican and Democratic policies it is still growing. Corporations are sitting on trillions of dollars on their balance sheets unwilling to invest, spend or hire until the Congress returns to sanity It took us decades to get where we are and these problems are going to get worse if we keep seeing same reckless and irresponsible brinksmanship the Republicans have displayed so far.
The auto and financial bailouts were unpopular and you can cavil all you want about them. The hard facts are the financial and auto industries were circling the drain. So just say thank you Mr President, because in the absence of action unemployment would be a lot higher and you'd be standing in a bread-line.
As for taxes, The "Making Work Pay" credit wasn't a tax cut? Changes to the child and earned income tax credit didn't reduce anyone's taxes? AMT changes for 2009 didn't help anyone? How is that possible? Explain it to me.
Our "laughable" foreign policy that has killed more Al Qaeda operatives than the Bush Administration, a risky mission that killed Osama bin Laden our President made the call on knowing full well what happened to Carter's Iran mission? A nearly cost-free liberation of Libya? Managing the Egyptian revolution? Restoring our damaged relationships with our allies? Are you talking about Clint's chair or the real POTUS? I don't think you understand foreign policy as well as you think you do.
So finally we have it. The President's policies don't fit the description of "socialism" but it's socialism. And why is that? Because he's a socialist? In other words, there is no objective benchmark for determining socialist policies here except the notion that if the President does it it must be socialism? And since it must be socialism he must be a socialist!! QED
Obama hasn't been left "unfettered" to do anything since the day he took office and the Republicans decided it was more important to defeat Obama than it was to perform their constitutionally sworn duty. We might be doing better if they had not decided to sell their souls to the Tea party.
Centrist posted at 1:01 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Excellent Cincinnatus and SHAME ON YOU mnjcpa.
MNJ, I thought we had covered this, but here you go again with your knee jerk response and your urge to recite untrue things you once read on a Fox News related propaganda web site.
Where should I start?
How about with the fact that the Volt does NOT cost GM $49,000 per unit to produce. Perhaps you failed to read GM's press release debunking the notion that it does. Since each time I point out something you said is FALSE you simply respond by saying, "No it isn't", here is your chance...reveal the source of your suggestion that the volt is $49,000 and then we will test it against mine. If you won't reveal the source, let's just agree you were misinformed on that one and then I'll move on to your suggestion that the press is an ObamaPac when the truth is that most media coverage favors Romney. I won't even include Fox in the discussion, how about that?
Engaged Voter posted at 1:13 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
I find it both funny and sad that the "religiously minded" (a nice PC term there, not the one I would have chosen) fling the word Socialism around, and from the context it's obvious they don't even know what it means.
Even sadder, once they've been made aware they are clueless, they choose to stay that way rather than educate themselves. Sad and pathetic.
Centrist posted at 1:58 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Sad but true, Engaged.
Also, I could not wait for mnj to respond to my challenge above (Although I have no doubt he will muster something in response. It will probably read something like this, "That's not what the 1000s of business owners I talk to everyday say...Yep, he is predictable and he has lost all credibility on this site). So, without further delay, here is the truth from GM's own website:
DETROIT – Reuters’ estimate of the current loss per unit for each Volt sold is grossly wrong, in part because the reporters allocated product development costs across the number of Volts sold instead of allocating across the lifetime volume of the program, which is how business operates. The Reuters’ numbers become more wrong with each Volt sold.
mnjcpa posted at 2:02 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Read it in Reuters centrist, and if you follow the most recent GM 10k it discusses the same. Next.
You can't be serious that ABC, NBC, CNN and CBS are impartial.How questions are framed, to the tone of the discussion, it's clear they're doing their best to get Obama reelected. I suppose if you share their perspective you don't see it.
mnjcpa posted at 2:15 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Interesting. Because tax rules won't allow GM to allocate those costs over a lifetime.
Cincinnatus posted at 2:16 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Call it cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, Dunning-Krueger, etc it all boils down to the following:
"That's not the way the world really works anymore.... when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
Aide to George W. Bush(Attributed to Karl Rove)
"We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers,"
Romney Pollster
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
Mark Twain
mnjcpa posted at 2:28 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Yeah you're right cincinnatus. Just like terrorist breakouts in the middle east on the anniversary of 9/11 was because of one lone filmmaker.
Centrist posted at 2:41 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
First, mnj, are you implying that anyone is asserting that the attack on our embassay in Libya was related to the film production issue that angered muslims? Because, if you are making that assertion, you are the first I have heard doing so. Most people I have heard talking about this issue realize there are 2 issues. First, there was the bombing of our embassay in Libya that was a direct response to the Obama Administration's successful effort to kill Al Libi. Second, there is the protest in Egypt by muslim groups who are angry about the film production. The two issues are unrelated. They happened at nearly the same time, but they are unreleated. You do understand that, right?
Centrist posted at 2:43 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Second, if you want to argue with GM about how much it costs to produce a vehicle, go ahead...I can't stop you. All I can do is ask you to acknowledge that the $49,000 production figure you read about has been challenged by the maker of the car. But, hey, you probably didn't read that part in the right-focused media you read (which you somehow want to argue is left-focused...very strange).
Cincinnatus posted at 2:52 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mnjcpa,
Some of us really care about the truth and don't care if it comes out of the mouth of a Republican or a Democrat. You seem to have chosen sides and adopted whatever the soup du jour of truthiness is served by FOX or Kudlow or Limbaugh or Coulter or any number of trolls that pass as serious purveyors of news. The Left has it's Olbermann, Maddow, Kos, etc and they too offer their own canned version of reality.
We don't have to fall for it.
As for the mainstream media - unfortunately, since news rooms have been turned into profit centers, print journalism began it's death spiral and the Internet has become the new arbiter of truth for the lazy and under-educated it has become possible for every kind of nonsense to be propagated as truth.
The media is not biased they simply want conflict and sensation - it sells. They are in fact more worried about ratings, revenue and access than they are about serious journalism, i.e., NBC could not be bothered with a moment of silence for the embassy victims in order to run a Kardashian interview. And FOX is simply not interested in journalism at all.
It's not bias - it's money that greases the media wheels.
Maddog posted at 2:55 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
(Reuters) - General Motors Co sold a record number of Chevrolet Volt sedans in August — but that probably isn't a good thing for the automaker's bottom line.
Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts. GM on Monday issued a statement disputing the estimates.
Cheap Volt lease offers meant to drive more customers to Chevy showrooms this summer may have pushed that loss even higher. There are some Americans paying just $5,050 to drive around for two years in a vehicle that cost as much as $89,000 to produce.
And while the loss per vehicle will shrink as more are built and sold, GM is still years away from making money on the Volt, which will soon face new competitors from Ford, Honda and others.
GM's basic problem is that "the Volt is over-engineered and over-priced," said Dennis Virag, president of the Michigan-based Automotive Consulting Group.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-generalmotors-autos-volt-idUSBRE88904J20120910
Cincinnatus posted at 2:58 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
It's 3PM here and this thread is a few hours old.
So are we all unemployed or are some us just not working very hard today? [beam]
Maddog posted at 3:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
It's Monday (hang over day) not working hard at all!!!
mnjcpa posted at 3:14 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
The issue that Cincinnatus brought up was that the auto industry was bailed out, not whether the Volt was profitable. You don't really need to print an article to know what a dreadful flop that vehicle has been. The GM auto bailout that he referred to did nothing more than bailout exorbitant union pensions and dumped the bondholders that invested in the company. GM should have gone bankrupt which would have forced them to redesign their business model to be competitive with others. Hardly a success story.
mnjcpa posted at 3:17 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
You know cinncinnatus - on both of your posts - completely agree! And yes, you're right. Back to work!
Accuracy posted at 3:25 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mrconservative posted: “Mike, Socialism doesn't work. It never has, it never will.”
It is Socialism in America that provides the security of the National Guard and the Army, Navy and Marine Corps to defend the country. It provides Veterans (VA) hospitals for veterans health care. It is socialism that brings the U.S. Postal mail, from the post offices, every day to homes and businesses. And it is socialism that brings the U.S. Postal mail, from the post offices, every day to homes and businesses. Socialism which provides regulations of airline flight patterns so that we can fly from here to there in relative safety; socialism which provides regulations of airline flight patterns so that we can fly from here to there in relative safety.
Yes, Social Security is Socialism in America. Socialism that provides social security payments for retirees at age 62 and older; It is financed by payroll taxes -- employers and employees must each pay a 6.2 percent tax on workers' earnings up to $106,800. The amount workers pay into the Social Security trust fund has temporarily dropped from 6.2 percent of taxable wages up to $106,800 annually to 4.2 percent. It also provides Medicare option health insurance coverage to people who are aged 65 and over, and provides health coverage for recipients covered under Medicaid program in the United States.
So, all of these and other socialistic services in America, how are they paid for? Why, of course, by our taxes.
Cincinnatus posted at 3:42 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mnjcpa,
First, Volt great car or a bad idea aside. GM makes more than one car.
Second, GM did go bankrupt and reorganized as part of a government approved re-structuring plan. It was the only way to do it because the credit markets were frozen at that time and would not have allowed them to obtain private financing. .
And the fallout in subsidiary industries would have been disastrous. Whether or not you liked the way it was done( someone was bound to lose in the deal) its pretty irrelevant since GM is back in business and we avoided the worst effects of losing our automotive industry.
mnjcpa posted at 4:03 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Good point, but how does that balance against repaying the taxpayer or the bondholders that lost millions? Or is redistribution of wealth okay as long as the 1% pay for everything?
Centrist posted at 4:24 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mnj,
Behind the times again....GM paid back the loan, in full plus interest on April 21, 2010. Your precious tax payers made money on the deal.
So, while I actually agree with you that we should have let the car industry in america fail (I do not wish to encourage poor workmanship), you are wrong to assert that the tax payers lost millions.
As to redistribution of wealth...let's get serious. Mirtt Romney is all about redistribution...He would simply rather steal from the poor to give to the rich. So, let's not use canned debate terms such as "redistribution" with an expectation that it will somehow make your point.
Cerulean posted at 4:31 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
It could also be that when Linda talks about “socialism” she means the inexpensive government loans to college students, loans that Romney would hand over to his friends with large appetites in the banking industry. Or, maybe she is thinking about the socialistic view that women should be paid the same wage as her male counterpart for the same work. Or, perhaps it’s socialized Medicare that both Romney and Ryan believe should be turned into a voucher program.
I will pray, I will pray that America finds the wisdom she needs to let go the obstructionist in congress. That, we the people understand the only thing holding us back from economic recovery are Republicans who pledge allegiance to the top 1%.
Centrist posted at 4:53 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Well said Cerulean.
mnjcpa posted at 6:02 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Let's see centrist. In one column of posting you've said I should be shamed, I have no credibility, I'm behind the times, and how strange my thinking is. So clearly you're not interested in what I have to say.
Cinncinnatus is actually very interesting to exchange ideas because it's absent the snarkiness. Way to hold a civil discussion.
Cerulean - what was your excuse in the obstructionist Congress the first two years Obama was in office?
lunix posted at 6:19 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
As I read the piece, I was very impressed by how well Linda understands the terrible toll that corporate (institutionalized individual) greed (which fueled political malfeasance) and the resultant lawbreaking (which caused the near-depression) has affected hard-working people and families. It's a very difficult set of problems.
But when I read this: "We must stay engaged in our political struggle. It does matter. It’s not complicated.", I realized that she doesn't understand the problem, she merely recognizes the symptoms. I challenge anyone to name a single instance in which political struggle resulted in a meaningful solution to any serious problem(s). I am asking about political struggle, not societal transformation. As I read history, it is replete with examples of political struggle causing these (and many other) sorts of problems. The conditions in which the near meltdown of the world's financial system occurred were legislated by politicians.
If anyone is deluded enough to think that their vote is going to make avarice obsolete...that certainly explains why things are so incredibly fouled up.
mnjcpa posted at 6:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cerulean - a few questions.
1. How exactly does it work to hand government loans to college student over to the banking industry? The banks make money if they loan money to students.
2. So forcing companies to pay people equally regardless of merit or performance will create a better system? Or does it force companies to hire people on their gender which may have or not have anything to do with performance? Help me understand how that helps the economy.
3. Most any financial analyst I know will say Medicare is bankrupt. It can't help but be given the sloppy use of it by both Republicans & Democrats. And Paul Ryan has created a plan that over an extended period of time modernizes the model to make it financially viable. While the DNC chairwoman stuck to a bold faced lie that Ryan's plan will put seniors on a voucher system, Obama can't get a vote from HIS OWN PARTY on his budget and hasn't offered any guidance as to how he is going to prevent Medicare from going bankrupt. But you're okay with that.
Help me understand why.
Centrist posted at 6:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mnj,
Truth hurts?
mnjcpa posted at 6:29 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Very interesting lunix.
mnjcpa posted at 6:38 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
One of the most thought provoking comments I've read in a long time lunix. Incredibly astute!
Cincinnatus posted at 6:41 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Centrist, mnjcpa,
Not so certain that the government has been fully compensated for the GM bailout. It's my understanding they're still on the hook for $25 billion. I could be wrong.
mjncpa,
How does it rebalance? It doesn't. It was a bad situation all around and a lot of people were going to get hurt whatever the Administration did or didn't do. The CEO was fired, shareholders took it in the shorts and the unions had to renegotiate their contract so everyone paid up. But it saved a vital part of the economy and industry.
Bush and Obama didn't get an easy problem - if it was easy someone else would have solved it.
As for the 1% - We're currently paying the lowest tax rates since the 1950's. The top 1% have had outsized gains from the economy that are so obscene that even the wealthy are embarrassed by it. Wage rates for the middle and lower class have barely budged for more than 30 years and the middle class is disappearing. This is not just an economic problem it's a crisis of democracy. If you want to see real "socialists" or worse take over in a decade from now then vote Republican today because from where I'm sitting they are in deep denial and following an old script to a play that's going to end very badly.
onerebel posted at 6:50 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
It's amazing how many people these days are willing to mortgage some of their Liberty to the government in the hopes it will take care of them.
Centrist posted at 6:52 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mnj,
Please stop spreading misinformation about Medicare. It is NOT bankrupt. Do more research before you post.
Cincinnatus posted at 6:57 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
lunix,
Interesting thought - but political struggle has solved any number of political problems from the overthrow of dictatorships in the Middle East, Europe, China and Latin America over history to Jim Crow and our own revolution as well as civil rights struggles in the 60's US.
To your point, it does give us some room to explore the possibility of fostering civic virtue and citizenship - educational domains we have tragically neglected for decades. We cannot have a virtuous government without a virtuous citizenry. The level of civic disaggregation that is currently taking place in our country threatens our survival and cannot be resolved without some common notion of citizenship and the responsibilities the citizen owes the nation.
Cerulean posted at 7:05 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mnjcpa, I am really tired this evening. I am without the fortitude to answer your questions. With that, “truth hurts” sounds very good to me.
mnjcpa posted at 7:07 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Agreed cincinnatus, the GM deal was a necessity. The word I take exception to is that it was successful.
In complete agreement that the rich keep getting richer, but the `1%` everyone yells about is too broad a cross section of people which is where I believe there's a distinction. There's a HUGE difference between a CEO of a large company and a family with a chain of pizza restaurants.
It's not just the Republicans cincinn....Obama has been as deep in Wall Street's pockets since 2008 as Romney. Take a look at Goldman Sachs & JPMorgan Chase earnings the last four years. It's all of us that are the fools.
Cincinnatus posted at 7:15 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
onerebel,
I'm always amazed by the number of right-wing patriots who have one quote they always use to cover every subject and especially those Tea Party patriots who love misquoting the Founding Fathers and ascribing to them things they never said.
Sorry for the snark but I've heard that one way too often.
Centrist posted at 7:17 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Oner,
It is amazing. All these conservatives who have been trained to believe that the millionaires (ie the top 1 percent) should take over with the idea that those folks will protect the 99 percent. Totally insane.
Cincinnatus posted at 7:26 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
mnjcpa,
You must be tired. The 1% is too broad a cross-section? If it were a broad cross-section it wouldn't be 1%. Kind of defines them.
The problem as I see it is that there is so much noise and misinformation around this subject coming from both sides that it becomes difficult to separate truth from fiction. I tend to err on the side of 'it isn't as bad as some would have us believe nor is it as harmless as some want us to think." Somewhere in the middle is the correct answer.
lunix posted at 7:45 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cincinnatus- I specifically excluded social struggle from my question- which is what all of the examples you cite represent.
It's true that those social struggles you mentioned each produced political as well as social change. Political struggles may also produce social change such as the disaggregation of communities (up to national-scale ones).
You make my point by citing the "civil rights struggles in the 60's US". They were by definition social and cultural, and manifestly not political. But as always, politicians attempted to capitalize on them.
You (unsurprisingly) can't cite an instance to refute my assertion that political struggle (of the sort that Linda promotes in her piece) has ever produced a solution to a significant problem such as that which she used as an example.
And that is the disagreement I have with the conclusion of her piece.
Centrist posted at 7:54 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cin,
Your statements are vague. What do you mean by "too broad a cross section"? My point was not to demonize that group but rather to highlight the dogma that says their money is the only money that deserves protection.
downtownresident posted at 8:05 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Linda,
You're a delusional person who can't separate her misguided religious indoctrination from reality. Tea anyone? Or Coke?
Did Mitt, approve this message?
Why not stick to quaint, uplifting messages, instead of blatant political pandering.
Do you even think MItt has to carry money to pay his bills? "His people" take care of that.
Mitt HAS NEVER had to worry about anything that the unwashed masses deal with every day.
You are wrong, again.
Centrist posted at 8:06 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cin, never mind. I misread and thought you were referring to my comment. When I read yours in connection with mnj's it makes sense.
mnjcpa posted at 8:42 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Cincinn - you're right there is a lot of noise around the 1%. My point is there's a heck of a lot of difference between Hollywood stars income and a family with a chain of restaurants. People that are earning millions should chip in heavier. But the 1% as I've seen it defined is anyone that makes $250k plus a year. Millions of small business owners fit this profile and will see their business taxes rise substantially if Obama's reelected.
sockratties posted at 8:55 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Linda -- you're not the first to have said it... "Let them eat cake." How did that work out for her?
Raising taxes on the "1%" is not quite what it seems. It's about income taxes, not wealth taxes. The trickle down theory is that the wealthy will invest the extra income.
Facts are that if the money is invested up front it won't be income and won't be taxable
Investment can help increase jobs. American income invested overseas should be considered taxable income.
samkat posted at 9:50 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
David Nichols: Consider that for every illegal deported, there is a job opening for a legal American. I have no sympathy for them if they cannot enter the country legally.
Cincinnatus posted at 10:20 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
Mnjcpa,
If I remember the statistics correctly about 3% of small businesses are in that category. And it seems to me that there were exceptions in legislation for some of those.
And we're talking "marginal" rates on income earned above $250k - not on the $250k. I think there's enough empirical and historical evidence that indicates that rates of taxation at the margin don't have a large effect on investment or economic activity.
I don't have a brief against the 1% but with great privilege comes great responsibility.
Cincinnatus posted at 10:34 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
lunix,
I might argue that Linda IS talking about a social struggle in the sense that a re-ordering of society is what they want. I might also argue that every political struggle
has a large social dimension to it. I don't know that they can be neatly separated.
The Polish Solidarity movement that ousted the Communist Party hold on power could be classified as a social struggle with enormous political consequences. Our own revolution was a purely political struggle over issues of representation, government and trade.
It's often tough to separate them. Most serious political struggles manifest themselves at the top and not from the bottom up.
lunix posted at 1:14 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
"It's often tough to separate them." I certainly agree- but it's not impossible. So, with what political party were the colonists aligned when they composed the Declaration of Independence? They may have been of different parties (and were), however the Declaration was a result of reasoned discussion not political activism.
You can argue that Linda is talking about social struggle, but I will let her speak for herself. To wit: "We must stay engaged in our political struggle. It does matter." Then she goes on to propose a false choice between socialism and personal freedom. One could fairly ask, does her personal freedom include depositing her Social Security checks or accepting the Medicare coverage she paid for? Will any of the changes to those programs proposed by politicians affect her or those of her vintage? Politicians exist to create and to solve political problems. Electing them merely prolongs the social problems and gives rise to the existence of new political ones. Churchill knew of no better alternative and he was pretty smart, but he was also a politician.
lunix posted at 1:31 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Further, I propose that separating (or distinguishing) the components of political and social struggle is exactly as difficult as (and is analogous to) separating political financial support from the blood and sweat (literal and/or figurative) of those who foster social change.
wdgnas posted at 6:02 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
why was it okay to borrow money to pay for two wars, medicare part d and a wall street bank bail out? but now, after all these years, the republicans have seen the error of their ways.
mnjcpa posted at 8:08 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Cincinn - I love your quote from the Bible and try to live it. But `to whom much is given` doesn't mean I support government spending policies that I disagree with. So I just give more to favorite charities that I do agree with and encourage clients to do the same.
Right now those small business owners are paying over 50% in taxes. And the same people employ over 90% of the employees in America. How do you think it's going to affect unemployment o increase their tax burden?
mnjcpa posted at 8:18 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
The best way to solve the disparity in tax Cincinn is to remove ALL of the loopholes, and start over again.
The oil company loopholes.
The farmer's loopholes.
The highest corporate tax rate in the world that encourages companies to outsource jobs rather than keeping them in America.
The illegal alien loopholes. (illegals tapped the treasury for over $7 billion last year)
The family credits that encourage people to have more children.
The credits that put money in people's pockets without paying a dime of tax.
Everyone should pay their fair share, and as long as the tax system is used to solve social issues there will forever be conflict.
Cincinnatus posted at 8:38 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
lunix,
Political struggles absent political parties are still political. The American revolutionaries reflected to a large degree the same kinds of ideological and political tensions that were occurring in England; country vs urban, industry vs agriculture and questions of representation and executive authority.
Just as economics is about the allocation of goods and services politics is about the allocation of power. Politics, as Clausewitz would say, is war by other means. To the extent that a social dimension enters into it doesn't mitigate the fact that it is a struggle either to maintain it or to acquire it.
Politicians exist to reframe or maintain power relationships, whether they be economic, social or political. To the extent that money enters into it simply reflects the fact that money is not speech, money is power. In the same way that the ability to mobilize people is power. Both are forms of political capital.
Cincinnatus posted at 9:03 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
mnjcpa,
Tax reform is desirable and while I disagree with your characterization of some of those credits and their purpose it would simplify things.
As for small business owners, I don't know the what tax structure small businesses face. I certainly don't know of anyone being taxed at 50%. There is no 50% marginal rate as far as I know. If you're saying the accumulated impact of taxation "on the business" is 50% including small business credits then it's a problem
My question would be whether the owners or the business are being taxed at that rate?
mnjcpa posted at 9:46 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
cincinn - Starting over would simplify taxes where EVERYONE pays tax. The problem is as much with Republican as Democrat policies but in my opinion, Obama and his media superpac has openly declared war on success and the creation of need and dependence on everything government and made that somehow `cool`. The world is upside down.
There's something wrong with an America where you're rewarded to be here illegally or encouraged to have children to get greater dollars from the government yet vilified for achievement. I'm paying over 50% now between ss/med that I'll likely never see, and the top federal/state rate. If Obama's reelected I'm facing a $40,000 increase.
Success didn't just drop in my lap. I worked my tail off for years to make it happen without a dime from anyone and the people I serve did the same thing. We're not `rich` by any stretch of the imagination.
My question is at what point of taking from people like myself will I or my clients say enough? If liberals stay in office that will be soon.
Cincinnatus posted at 10:37 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
mnjcpa,
Now we're getting hyperbolic and channelling FOX talking points. Both the Dems and the Reps have superpacs so it's not as if Obama has a corner on the market.
We've all worked our tails off and some are more successful than others. Some of the hardest working people I know make less than $30,000 a year. Not everyone can or wants to be Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.
The country at this point has a dire problem and one even our Founders recognized. That great disparities of wealth are corrosive to society and a threat to democratic governance. Look at the state of our politics and our economy today and tell me that isn't true.
As I indicated before, our current tax rate on upper income brackets is by historical standards pretty low. You sound like you may be old enough to remember when marginal rates in the top bracket were 91% - that's a far cry from current rates. And I don't seem to remember economic growth being a problem in the 50's and 60's.
Obama is essentially trying to create a sustainable economy where the rewards of economic growth aren't all pushed to the top. We can't sustain a democracy with hedge fund managers in $30,000 loafers stepping over homeless auto workers on their way to their limousine. It's not about punishing the rich and successful, it's about ensuring that we maintain a strong middle class and and a pathway into that middle class - that's in danger right now. I'm currently officially retired(until I find a job) and so I look through the job ads. When I see the wages that are being paid to entry-level industrial or warehouse workers or bartenders or any number of non-professional careers I am astounded. Because when I started working nearly 40 years ago I was being paid about the same wage! How can that be? How can the average wage not have moved for these people or only minimally in nearly 40 years? Your tempting me get started on a rant about corporate greed but I'll try to control myself.
A lot of those people you complain aren't contributing barely make enough money to put food on the table. And there are lots of them. We can't be a society that ignores that so that the wealthy don't feel put upon.
I'll tell you what my financial advisor told me when I started complaining about capital gains. It's a nice problem to have.
mnjcpa posted at 11:05 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Fair enough -I do consider it a blessing that I've been given so much. But that doesn't mean I should be vilified for what I or my clients have accomplished and it doesn't mean I should cheerfully fund programs that I fundamentally disagree with. My charitable contributions will top 30% of my income this year, but even those Obama has attempted three times to reduce the deduction.
Completely agreed with what you're saying about the fairness of our system, and if tax reform would start over again then I believe that would be accomplished. Remove ALL of the loopholes, so everyone is taxed in the same manner. I do recall those tax rates, but we also didn't have close to 50% of the population dependent on the government or the flood of illegals that we support in our system.
What I don't agree with is Obama's plan is the solution. For starters, he doesn't have a plan nor a budget that he can even get a vote from his own party. That's a non-starter in my world.
You're great to exchange thoughts with.
Centrist posted at 11:20 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
MNJ,
Careful now...
50% of yor income goes to taxes
30% to charity
Apparently you live on 20% of your income and can afford to invest so much of it that you pay a capital gains tax.
I don't believe your numbers...Gee, which one is likely inaccurate? How about both.
mnjcpa posted at 11:37 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Oh, there's that nasty fly again. Bzz, bzz,
Cincinnatus posted at 11:41 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Mnjcpa,
You're not being vilified but the politics has to play out that way to mobilize people who would not otherwise vote. In the same way that Romney has to mimic Tea Party talking points to get out his vote even if he doesn't believe a word of it.
And we are all dependent on the government for something or other. The problem isn't dependency it's what kind of dependency. I would argue that the kind of dependency you're talking about is not as severe as you believe.
Obama does have a plan and he does have a budget. It's sitting on my desktop as we speak. If you'd like the link:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget
As far as the Democratic legislators are concerned as well the Republicans I'll quote Twain again;
"I never can think of Judas Iscariot without losing my temper. To my mind Judas Iscariot was nothing but a low, mean, premature, Congressman."
Always nice to have a civil political discussion - almost an oxymoron these days.
Cincinnatus posted at 11:53 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Centrist, Mjncpa
Understand both your frustrations but you catch more flies with honey.
mnjcpa posted at 12:00 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
cincinn - I've seen that budget, but my point is that it really doesn't mean anything if you can't get a member of your own party to vote for it. What does that say about your leadership abilities when you're own party won't approve?
A great leader brings people together, not blatantly disregard those you disagree with. I'm not saying Romney is the be all, end all, but he definitely shines in the area of turning troubled situations around. Obama doesn't have those qualities.
What we need more of are people like yourself that want to understand other's point of view without the need to make oneself look good at someone else' expense. Thanks again for that opportunity to exchange ideas. Now back to work.
mnjcpa posted at 12:01 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Great discussion cincinn - thanks for the opportunity to exchange ideas.
Cincinnatus posted at 12:17 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
understood - I don't agree. I think he did a pretty good job of preventing another Great Depression. And as for bringing people together, I doubt that Jesus and the Buddha could do that in this political environment.
Ditto on discussion
lunix posted at 12:25 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Cincinn,
I enjoy your posts. These statements "politics is about the allocation of power", "politics is war by other means" are certainly congruous. I consider them completely accurate only when they are applied within the sphere of politics itself. There have been a few times in history when political activism (or struggle) resulted in direct social activism. The results were not good. Possibly the worst example is the rise of the Nazis in Germany. I stand by my statement that politicians exist to create and to solve political problems. I don't proffer that as a theoretical statement, but a practical one. It seems to me that when social activism results in political action the results have been much better.
Unfortunately (in many cases) political power has consequences outside the realm of politics. For one thing it serves to divide those who would otherwise be neighborly. In fact, sometimes is takes an actual disaster to make people put politics aside and ignore their differences. That's perhaps when you most clearly see the difference between social struggle, and political struggle. But as we can see in the current political climate it can have the effect of further dividing people.
And that brings me back full-circle: If anyone is deluded enough to think that their vote is going to make avarice obsolete...that certainly explains why things are so incredibly fouled up.
sockratties posted at 12:38 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
For the average working stiff a lot has changed. When I got out of the service in 1960 my tax rate was similar to what it is now, as our politicians tend to claim. I had a near minimum paying job as a security guard while I attended college. 50 years ago I could deduct interest on my mortgage, as I do now. I could also deduct all medical expenses, all charitable contributions, all educational expenses, and any interest of any kind including department store credit cards. These amounts were subtracted from my gross income to calculate my taxable income. With the exception of mortgage interest most of those deductions are either gone or limited to an unrealistically high threshold. Congress has continually eroded deductions until few families find itemizing worthwhile.
So while the tax rate remains fairly low, the effective tax on income has increased dramatically. It reminds me of something Ron Reagan said when he was introducing James Watt as Secretary of the Interior in 1981: “There are more trees in our national parks now than there were when the country was formed.” Well, duh! Washington is still working with smoke and mirrors.
mnjcpa posted at 12:54 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Agreed lunix. Read `Bought & Paid For` - a great account of how Goldman Sachs & JP Morgan made off like bandits by funding Obama's 2008 election. You'll see there's really no difference between the candidates - they're both in bed with big business.
And sock - you're precisely right. People get hung up on the rate, but no one discusses the impact of inflation or what phaseouts mean.
Centrist posted at 1:53 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Cincin,
While your attempt to bring civility to this board is noble, you will soon learn that mnj and his right-wing cousins who regularly post here are not interested in that. MNJ has, to his credit, maintained a civil discourse with you thus far. But, he is only doing so because by doing so he can argue that I am the unreasonable one.
Feel free to snoop around at any of his other posts. You will see he is nothing more than a parrot of O'Reilly and Limbaugh.
In short, don't be fooled into wasting your honey. This guy is all about the vinegar.
Centrist posted at 1:54 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
MNJ,
To suggest Romney shines in the area of "turning things around" is to suggest hell is nice in the winter time.
Cincinnatus posted at 2:03 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Centrist,
I'm an eternal optimist. If we don't buzz around then mnj will be alone with Rush and O'Reilly and that's cruel and unusual punishment.
Cincinnatus posted at 2:23 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Lunix.
Enjoy yours also. If I understand you right I think you're making a distinction without a difference. Politics is politics whether it is social, religious, economic, sexual or ideological.
Machiavelli wrote The Prince as an instruction set on how princes can hold on to power and Saul Alinsky wrote Rules for Radicals on how to take power away from princes. The both may have been writing for the different audiences but many of the fundamental rules are the same.
So would you say the Tea Party as a grass-roots movement is positive? We'll ignore for a moment the outside manipulation by monied interests. Would you say the results of popular religious movements like the Great Awakening in American history with it's elevation of emotion and revelation over intellect had a positive impact on our politics?
Social movements are as prone to error as any purely political agenda.
mnjcpa posted at 2:23 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
I'm entitled to my opinion just as you and centrist are cincinn.
For some reason it's pitifully important for centrist to use his time to squash people he disregards in this column. Probably doesn't make any money, but hey, the work is so, so important.
But doesn't mean that we didn't just have a great discussion. I still appreciate it and thanks again.
Centrist posted at 2:38 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
mnj,
You are at least one thing and that is consistent. You consistently miss the point. No one has said you are not entitled to an opinion. What you are not entitled to do is make statements you assert as factual when they are able to be proven false. As long as you keep misleading, I will keep striaghtening it all out for the readers.
Not sure I understand your money statement. Of course no one pays me to correct you. I do it for fun.
Cincinnatus posted at 2:47 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Mjncpa, Centrist
We are all entitled to our own opinions. We are not entitled to our own facts.
Pace [beam]
mnjcpa posted at 3:01 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Boy what I don't miss the point on is how consistently I get under your skin.
It's amazing that you've got so much time on your hands that you resort to such cowardly nonsense. I know myself I've wasted a lot of time on this column. You're probably a great guy and have a lot to bring to a discussion, nevertheless you've proven cinn's point of it's better to use honey than vinegar because it's just really not necessary to be such a jerk unless you're in the courtroom. Maybe you just can't help yourself.
Cincinnatus posted at 3:02 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
The central point of this entire thread - although it has wandered at times into metaphysics - was the false choice(as many of us see it) that Linda injected into an otherwise innocuous commentary.
The choice being between "socialism" and whatever brand of Randian laissez-faire capitalism that the Republican(sic) Party now represents. The implication being that the President is pursuing a socialist agenda. I think I put that notion to bed at the top of the thread.
Anyone still a hold-out for the Obama is a socialist POV? If you are give a "concise" (and I mean textbook accurate) definition of socialism and explain how Obama's policies differ from the last 42 presidents before him?
Cincinnatus posted at 3:34 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
It has been a half hour since I asked for any hold-outs on the Obama is a socialist point of view and no takers!
In the Arizona East Valley Tribune no less!!! Listening Linda? Begin your retraction.
My work is done and I can go back to plowing my fields.
Signing off,
Cincinnatus
lunix posted at 4:57 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
To all of our friends:
As most, if not all of you know- the gap between the rich and poor is growing rapidly. According to Bloomberg's Mark Dean the income of the wealthiest 10 percent of the population is nine times greater than that of the poorest 10 percent and that gap has grown about ten percent in the last 25 years.
We want you to know that we're listening. Perhaps this will provide you with some hope: We will always need people who will do an excellent job of landsaping our properties, serving and cleaning up after our banquets and lavish parties, providing housekeeping, and management of our household wait staffs and vendors, chauffers, nannies, tutors, private athletic trainers, certified nurising assistants, and so forth. So please don't worry about the future. It's time to take responsibility for your life and leave the responsibility for the government to us. We will promise that we'll always be able to provide you with a job somewhere. You might not be able to afford a house or quality health insurance, but we will see to it that you can afford a Netflix subscription and your kids will always have access to the latest video games.
Lets be honest- if you have time to read this, you probably will soon be replaced by a machine or a worker in an underdeveloped nation. You might as well adjust to the reality that the income gap is going to keep getting wider. But don't worry, that is to everyone's benefit. It was like this in the 1920's, and they are remembered as "roaring". Everything is going to be fine, in fact, we're making it even better.
Some of you have expressed concern for your kids education. We have kids too, so we understand. Don't worry- we are seeing to it that your children are getting all the education they need to ensure a lifetime of employment in the economy that we built and are stewarding through these challenging times! There will always be children who excel, and we see them every day at dinner time. They will attend the best universities, and become doctors, engineers, and scientists. They will build new companies funded by our concentrated wealth. They make us so hopeful about the future! They will create the jobs in the new service economy that will ensure that you and your children will always have a roof and inexpensive food that our companies are growing on an industrial scale.
Some of you have asked why we support candidates of both parties. The answer is pretty obvious- we like how they operate. There's little difference between the policies of these politicians, regardless of their party affiliation. True, the small differences between them can amount to hundreds of billions, even trillions in added or lost income for us and our companies over the course of a presidential term. That's why we collectively spend a few billion to make sure the right candidate usually gets elected. And that brings us to the reason we're writing to you now. There's a lot of needless concern about the election. It's causing name calling, and socio-economic disruptions. This is not to anyone's benefit. So we are asking you to pay extra attention to the informative advertising supported by our super-PACs. We understand that many of you want to know who we are, but it's in your interest for us to stay anonymous. We don't want the factual information we give you to take a back seat to your preferences for one group or individual over another.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read this, especially if you're doing so on your time away from the two or three jobs you're working. We are glad to provide them to you, and appreciate all of your hard work! In summary, don't worry about the future. The stock market is soaring, oil companies, coal companies, even mortgage lenders and big banks are making record profits. We know how to manage money, and as a result our country is getting more and more wealthy. So please look at your declining incomes as a blessing. Most people don't know how to manage their money, just look around at your neighbors. But we do. We appreciate your trust and confidence as we continue to make this a better country for us all!
Your eternal friend,
The Establishment
Centrist posted at 5:09 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Mnj,
Don't flatter yourself. What gets under my skin is I'll informed dogma. If that is you, congrats.
Nothing I have ever said is cowardly. One might accuse me of many things, but cowardly actions on this board is downright false. But then again, I have come to expect false statements from you. Time and time again...
Cin, according to Mnj, your time on this thread is a waste...heck, according to Mnj, his own time on this thread is a waste of time. Not really sure why he is sticking around then.
Mnj, I don't consider debunking right wing nonsense a waste of time, hence my efforts here.
Centrist posted at 5:16 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.
Mnj,
I know it surprises you that I devote time to this website's discussion board and time and time again you have insinuated that I must not have personal success because of it. In short, you could not be more wrong.
Did it ever occur to you that I might, in fact, own my own business with significant revenue such that I can devote ample time to other pursuits. Or, have you ever considered the fact that maybe I get into the office at 6 am and get all my work done by 2 pm (yep, that is 8 billable hours a day at 350 dollars per hour, you do the math). so, enough with your cowardly suggestion that my dedication to debunking your so called "facts" means I am not productive or financially successful. Got it.
mnjcpa posted at 11:04 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
An arm of our business is financial and market research for Pepperdine, UnivChicago, Gallup, Wall Street Journal among many others. This morning our staff meeting was how to manage public discourse and we used this string of comments as a case study which was a fascinating discussion.
Your comment that Medicare wasn't bankrupt when the facts conclude differently drew amazement. We can't pay the INTEREST on our debt and if we took ALL of the revenue from taxpayers it wouldn't make a dent on the debt but you'll stand by it as if you've cornered the market on facts.
This election isn't about Obama or Romney. Lunix is right – our problems are much bigger than either political party. Our economy is imploding, but the press won’t even talk about it and we may have passed the tipping point where self-reliance is no longer an attractive character attribute and government reliance is superior. It's why Romney's comment of the 47% is so relevant.
The staff criticized me for my own harsh words and for that my apologies. Everyone got that you thoroughly believe in your cause, but failed to see why you believe it’s superior particularly since your profession benefits from bigger government other than how personal benefits like entitlements tend to warp opinion. And tired, lame targets of OReilly and Limbaugh accomplish nothing.
So if you need to continue backslapping your liberal buddies on this column have a ball - I’ll check back in when economic collapse unfolds.
Cincinnatus posted at 4:18 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
mnj,
Really? Medicare Part A Hospital Trust Fund was having problems that were corrected under the dreaded ACA(ObamaCare) by cutting provider reimbursements and increasing the payroll tax on higher-income folks. Part B according to all the fact-checkers and economists I'm reading appears to be alright. So bankruptcy doesn't appear to be in the cards or am I missing something?
As for the economy imploding? I thought we settled this. I can see some shocks to the system from Europe or another conflict in the Middle East but where do you see the implosion coming from? Inflation? We have an 8% unemployment rate. The debt? Certainly serious but interest rates are low and as the economy picks up steam and if we go back to reasonable tax rates and tinker with the entitlement system we can bring that down over time. Otherwise corporations are sitting on tons of cash, home-building is up and home builder sentiment is nearly at the magical number 50, economic sentiment indicators are turning positive, stock market is climbing it's usual wall of worry, etc. So let me in on the secret because I've got a portfolio to manage.
As for Romney remarks. Shame. The real tragedy isn't that we have 47% receiving government checks but that nearly one-half of those people - a quarter of the working population - make so little from work that they are considered too poor to pay taxes. That's what comes from making those people who "did build that" work for peanuts.
Centrist posted at 6:11 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
MNJ,
Here is the real truth (which I hope you will share with your round-table group so that they have the benefit of same.)
Medicare, like social security is financed by a payroll tax, 1.45 percent. Most experts agree that Medicare would be sound if the fund’s projected solvency is 18 years. In 1993, the Medicare fund was scheduled to run out of money in 1999. By 2001, through much maneuvering, the solvency had been extended to 2025. Furthermore, a huge savings option – cutting the reimbursement rates to Medicare Advantage providers – has recently been taken adding a few more years to the funds viability. Sooo, not really seeing the "bankruptcy" you allude to (probably because it is not there.)
In short, you are wrong again. Medicare is not broke. The comments I made above about O’Reilly and Limbaugh would be – as you say – "tired and lame" if they were not just so true.
Here is an offer you should accept. Try proving me wrong. Try posting one of your so called "opinions" that can be factually supported. If you are able to do so, then it won't be a right-wing talking point like the rest of your discourse typically is.
PLEASE, I IMPLORE YOU, STOP GETTING MISINFORMATION FROM CONSERVATIVE PROPOGANDA MACHINES AND REPORTING IT HERE AS FACT.
mnjcpa posted at 6:43 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
cinn -
It would be great if the atmosphere on this opinion blog was in the spirit of exchanging ideas,but it’s not. Unless people can discuss issues and problems openly in a civil manner we'll never get to the bottom of America’s problems.
While your questions are good ones, I’m really not interested in setting myself up to be cut off at the knees, so thanks, but I’ll pass.
Centrist posted at 7:09 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.
There it is. When put to the task MNJ can't give you data or facts to support his so called opinions. Is that perhaps because they were not opinions he reached after a careful review of facts...Perhaps these conclusory statements are sppon fed to him and he laps them up??
Cincinnatus posted at 7:44 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
mnj,
Understood. But you'd help your cause more by providing the basic arithmetic and reasoning behind your statements. Don't take this the wrong way but you have a tendency to make ideological arguments rather than specific ones.
What I and others, especially Centrist, find frustrating, and I have many conservative friends(yes - it's still possible), about many conservative(sic) claims is that we are so often presented with these lapidary statements like , "Obama is a socialist", "he's weak on foreign policy", "the economy is imploding" or '47% of Americans are dependent and won't ever take responsibility for their lives". with little recognition that you need to provide the relevant facts and numbers to back them up - and then be willing to parse numbers or the policy when the argument calls for it. We all have to be willing to do that rather than going into a defensive crouch.
None of us should be taking hard-line positions and sticking to them no matter what the evidence without the expectation that we're going to make people angry and frustrated. If you saw Bill Clinton's speech at the DNC in Charlotte - regardless of whether you agreed with it - he did a masterful presentation rebutting every Republican talking point using logic and simple arithmetic. But he gave specifics that can be fact-checked and discussed.
Don't mean to be preachy. But we all have to be willing to change our minds, as painful as that may sometimes be, when we are wrong. We can all learn something from these discussions but it's not going to happen if we come after each other with hammer and tongs and insults - that's a recipe for perpetual ignorance. Because at some point in this country people are going to have to come together and agree on what a fact is or we're all doomed.
sockratties posted at 11:20 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Why don’t you boys meet in the sauna at the local YMCA. Then the rest of us won’t have to read you blowing smoke you know where. I for one don’t care if you're billing your clients or if you’re ripping your employer off by blogging on company time. As for the issue in Linda’s commentary, welcome.
mnjcpa posted at 12:05 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Cinn - when people have personal gain vested in their opinion and lift themselves up by putting other people down it’s sick. Centrist' business is built on bigger government, so you really believe he's interested in an opposing opinion?You're financial planner gets paid to keep you in the stock market and gets his information from Wall Street that gains from keeping you in the market. And the news stations don't even try to cover their bias any longer, so they're going to make you try to believe everything is turning around right before the election which is patently false.
There's no discussion that I could have around those topics suggested without needing to take a shower after reading the response so no thanks.
My best advice is to read everything you can about Keynesian economics. It's not that wages are low, it's the dollar has depreciated so badly and it's going to get worse. There's also great books on the financial system that led up to Nazi Germany, eerily similar to what we're experiencing. I'll listen to Clinton's speech, but I'm confident it had nothing to do with our weakened monetary system.
I'm with sock - too much time wasted. Good luck. I hope for you that you're right.
Centrist posted at 2:56 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
MNJ,
What is amazing is the disingenious nature with which you try to claim you are a victim of personal attack when, in truth, you are simply being asked to support your so called opinions with facts yet you fail at every turn choosing instead to say, "well that's what thousands of business people tell me.
MNJ, you know nothing about my business so how could you assert that it benefits from a bigger government?
How many times has Keynesian economics been debunked as junk science, dozens.
Finally, of course you are with soc...he is just as disingenious as you. He claims not to want to hear our conversation but it appears he has read each and every line of it.
Cincinnatus posted at 4:54 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Centrist,
You need to take a deep breath. If you're intent is to alienate people from your point of view by suggesting they're dishonest or stupid I don't know what that gets you? Understand your frustration but we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Keynesian economics = junk science? You sure you want to say that? You understand that Keynesianism is the general economic script Obama has been trying to follow for the last four years? I don't think applying it to the current situation leads to the conclusion that mnj thinks it does. There are some very good "professional" economic analyses that indicate that we're a very far cry from Weimar.
Centrist posted at 5:27 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Cin,
You are entering this debate way too late. As I previously mentioned, don't think that you can reason with mnj. He opposes anything this administration does simply on principle. The foundation for every opinion is his "highly scientific" polls of the "thousands of business people" he talks to. Cin, I alienated mnj long ago. Now, it is just all about grabbing the low hanging fruit.
For a good "detailed" debunking of the falacies contained within Keynesian economics read "The Failure of the New Economics" by Hazlitt. In short, Keynes failure to consider the role of inflation and his ignorance of practical considerations in market variances undercuts his general theory. While Keynes acknowledgement of the government's policy and its influences on economic growth were admerible for his time, the modern economy is much to global in scope to be driven by a microeconmic assessment. The stagflation of the 1970s is a prime example of the theory's failures.
Engaged Voter posted at 5:53 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
"There's no discussion that I could have around those topics suggested without needing to take a shower after reading the response so no thanks."
Here's an idea - stop making specious and/or false claims that you have no intention of supporting.
When you stop posting falsehoods and outright lies, you may find the responses less caustic. ;)
Cincinnatus posted at 6:39 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Centrist,
That's not a sufficient argument for the tone of the discussions on so many of these boards that degenerate immediately into "so is your mother" modes of discourse. The public square is beginning to look like a bombed out crater and if making the rubble bounce is what's important to you try cage-matches.
Civility isn't an option it's a way we choose to live in a "civilized" society. I have to wonder if none of us we're afforded the anonymity that these boards provide if we would be so quick to start throwing bombs.
Thanks for the Hazlitt reference. I'll look it up.
Centrist posted at 9:09 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.
Cin,
As much as I appreciate your previous comments in this thread and the civility you so desperately wish to instill, FRANKLY, my input on this board is not governed by your approval nor am I looking to measure up to your idea of a sufficient basis for my tone or approach. This back and forth between me and mnj well precedes your arrival. Kindly deal with him as you will and I will handle him in my own way. I tried civil discourse with him long ago, all that got me was persistent Limbaughesqe garbage. So, now, I tell it to him like it is.
downtownresident posted at 4:16 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.
Did Mitt Romney approve this messsage?
As Mike said, the atricle was deviod of any substance or message until that last politically motivated paragraph.
If the unconnected one somehow buys this election this country will be in economic shambles in just a few years.
mnjcpa posted at 1:52 pm on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.
Thanks Cinn - Don't you feel like you were just served with legal papers?
Loved your comment that the public square is beginning to look like a bombed out crater suggesting Centrist try cage-matches. Hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Not sure if he's just blind to his caustic nature, but it's hardly a quality to help someone see your point of view.
Listened to Clinton as suggested and can counter every one of his points and if Centrist wasn't hanging around I would enjoy that discussion. We may not change each others minds, but we would enjoy the discussion. Thanks again.
Centrist posted at 5:52 pm on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.
Mnj,
Your soooo disingenuous. You never had a problem being caustic before Cin asked me not to. Either way, know that I will continue fact checking your responses. Cheers.
mnjcpa posted at 7:49 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
Really centrist - try the cage fighting. You'd be a happier person.
mnjcpa posted at 7:54 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
I find that the most successful people are open to ideas and consider them without defensiveness. They are mature enough to reject an idea that makes no sense for them without condemning it or the messenger. These people thrive because they are accepting and evaluative.
There are others, however, who seek immediately to refute, undermine, and disprove. They never learn or grow because their immune system rejects all that is new and previously unknown. They are prognathous in explaining why anything not originating with them can't possibly work.
Who do you want to be, and with whom do you want to hang out? I choose people like Cinncinn.
Centrist posted at 8:39 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
MNJ,
Your Quote Above:
There are others, however, who seek immediately to refute, undermine, and disprove. They never learn or grow because their immune system rejects all that is new and previously unknown.
Your Quote on July 15, 2012:
You don't get it. I don'tcare what you think.
Another one of your gems from July 15:
Loved your novella but your comments are all over the place. Sure appreciate your life story and giving me communication instructions - didn’t realize you ran this column.
Soooo, who exactly is smug, arrogant, and never learning or growing because they reject all that is new?
MNJ, this is getting too easy. You are a ball of contradictions. Hang it up.
As for my level of happiness, you know nothing about it. How dare you suggest you do?It only goes to show you believe you know everything.
Here is my sworn promise. Whenever you post, I'll be there to fact check...
mnjcpa posted at 8:59 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
Cinn's recommendation of cage fighting still applies - your blind spot is a mile wide.
Centrist posted at 10:23 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
MNJ,
Your comment is classic. THe inmate always thinks it is the jailer's fault.
Ues true facts in your arguments and you won't have to deal with me.
If I don't respond to any of your additional comments it is not because I agree with them (or because my wife has asked me to take pitty on you). It is because my point is made and any additional comment from you is utter nonsense.
Enough said.
mnjcpa posted at 11:49 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.
Even those that agree with your political views (Cinn) you can't help but give them marching orders. Yeah, right - I'm the one that's got the blind spot.